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#1
9th of May, 2009, 04:27
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Combat as a skill challenge - The Combat Challenge system
Ok, so here goes. I promised LP to post the system I was thinking for a PbP game for resolving trivial combat.
I'll break it down to different posts, so it is easier to read and easier to edit. Essentially it is a way to play out less significant combat encounters fast, and having them deal some damage to the characters and use up some powers. Basically this should allow for more combat to happen between extended rests, but in a way that does not consume a lot of time in a game - something which might help play-by-post games especially. The premises of the system: - The system is based on the Obsidian skill challenge (DC's and such) designed by Travis Huston Dunlap. Because of this it would be nice if skill challenges in the game would also use the same system. The system is available on the Enworld forums. Google "obsidian skill challenge" and you will get a good link. - Because the system is based on Obsidian, it has three outcomes: success, partial success and failure. These are called Defeat, partial victory and victory in the combat challenge. Depending on the DM, failure can just be a costly victory, or a retreat and retry. Defeat should not mean any characters actually die. - The system uses class roles to define what typically happens during a challenge. The idea is still to be flexible, so that roles can mix a bit. - The encounters that are resolved using this are assumed to be from easy to normal difficulty. This means that the characters don't really have a chance of dying as a result. They will just take a varying amount of damage and perhaps use some daily powers. - Typical easy combats lead to each player losing about 1-2 healing surges if the combat is going well for the PC's. This remains to be playtested, since the numbers in the challenge are just what I could do with basic math and keeping it simple. 
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#2
9th of May, 2009, 04:36
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THE COMBAT CHALLENGE SYSTEM
The combat challenge system is a free form combat resolution system that has been designed for resolving combat quickly without detailed tactical maps. It is meant to speed up play for non-essential encounters while still using up character resources. It is based on the obsidian skill challenge system. That system provides the basic framework, which is briefly described below: 1) The challenge takes three rounds 2) The challenge has a DC based on level and the desired challenge 3) The amount of successful checks needed by the PCs to progress is based on how many PC's are taking part in the challenge. 4) There is a list of skills that are allowed, and additinally any skill a player describes as an action that suits the challenge can be allowed outside the list of allowed skills - one such "skill stunt" can be used per challenge per player. ADDITIONAL SKILLS FOR PLAYER CHARACTERS Since the combat challenge is meant to emulate combat, there are some new skills defined that will be used in most of the checks. The skills are meant to describe in a simple manner what a typical character would be able to do in a combat played in the normal detailed way. The primary skills are listed below, with the typical class role using the skill in parenthesis: Block (defenders) Assault (strikers) Suppress (controllers) Command (leaders) Each character has the primary skill based on his role (but see additional rules) and one secondary skill he chooses based on his secondary focus from his primary class, or perhaps multiclassing. Suggested secondary skills: Block (melee leaders, melee strikers) Assault (defenders) Support/Suppress (ranged strikers) Command (secondary leaders, like paladins) The primary skill for each character is equal to: 1/2 level + highest ability modifier + 5 The secondary skill for each character is equal to: 1/2 level + second highest ability modifier +5 (total value of the secondary skill is maximum of primary skill - 1). Additionally, all the other skills are considered tertiary skills with value of: 1/2 level + third highest ability modifier +5 (maximum of secondary skill -1) The skill totals should be recorded for each character. The player can define his character's skills as he sees best fitting to his character, so a defender might have assault as primary skill if the character is built to function in that manner. The idea is to be quite freeform here, but to fix the skills so that when the challenge starts, it is not possible to switch skill totals. The effect of each skill depends on the Monster role it is used on in addition to providing a chance of success for purposes of total successfull rolls. See the MONSTERS / NPC'S chapter for the effects. The command skill is a special case. The command skill can either be used to attack a monster to give a +1 to any success rolls against that monster later in the challenge, or it can be used on a monster after someone else has attacked it on the same round, and in this case it counts as the same skill as the previous one used - it does not matter if the previous attack failed. Last edited by Rothe; 7th of January, 2010 at 02:40.
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#3
9th of May, 2009, 04:42
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MONSTERS / NPC's
Monsters and NPC's who are opposing the PC's do not have active skills. Instead, the DC of the challenge defines how difficult it is for the PC's to defeat them. Monsters still have passive abilities based on role. Each monster has the following listing: - damage per round (DPR) - a special ability or abilities that describes its behaviour in the challenge - Weaknesses and Resistances (see later) - Tactics that are particularly useful versus that monster Terms used later: Weakness means that that the DC to hit the monster is -2 with the skills mentioned. Resistance means that the DC to attack the monster with the skills mentioned is at +2, Weakness and resistance modifiers are also used for combat stunts. Monster abilities: Minion DPR: 1/level and additional 1/level for every two minions in the fight (including itself) Special Ability: DCs to block artillery, controller or leader are +2 Tactics: Successfully blocking or suppressing a minion reduces damage to 1/level and nullifies its special ability for the rest of the round. Resistance: Assault Weakness: Suppress Soldier DPR: 1/level Special Ability: DCs to assault, block or support monsters other than the soldier are +2 Tactics: Successfully assaulting or blocking a soldier nullifies its special ability for the rest of the round. Resistance: Assault Brute DPR: 2/level Special Ability: DCs to attack monsters other than the brute are +2 Tactics: Successfully assaulting, blocking or suppressing a brute reduces its DPR to 1/level and nullifies its special ability for the rest of the round. Weakness: Assault Skirmisher DPR: 2/level Tactics: Succesfully attacking a skirmisher reduces its DPR to 1/level for the rest of the round. Resistance: Block, Suppress Lurker DPR: 1/level. If the enemies surprise the characters (via stealth or similar conditions), the lurker deals +2 DPR/level on round 1 and +1 DPR/level on later rounds. Tactics: Successfully attacking a Lurker reduces its DPR to 1/level and removes its resistances for the rest of the fight. Resistance: All combat skills Special: The perception skill can be used to attack lurkers as a combat stunt any number of times during a skill challenge (over the normal limit of one combat stunt per character). See combat stunts later. Artillery DPR: 1/level Special ability: artillery deals +2/level damage Tactics: Successfully blocking or assaulting an artillery reduces its DPR to 1/level for the rest of the round. Weakness: Assault Controller DPR: 1/level Special ability: Skill check failures on a given round do 1/level damage to a character who fails. Tactics: Successfully assaulting or blocking the controller nullifies its special ability for the rest of the round. Leader (normal monsters are not leaders, it is just an additional elite/solo role) DPR: +1/level Special ability modifier: Additional role for elite or solo, add 2 to any DC increase from other roles (i.e. has to be blocked twice to get rid of +4 DC modifier, or once to get rid of +2 DC modifier). Elites have two normal roles or one normal role + the leader role An elite is basically treated as two monsters Solos have three roles, one or more which can be doubled up. The basic idea is for a solo to represent 4 - 5 normal monsters in a combat challenge, although it can be any number of monsters from 3 up. Optional rules for minions: A minion can also have a secondary monster role, if they do, remove the penalty in the basic minion stat block and substitute it with one from the other monsters (other than leader, elite or solo). If the secondary role deals more than 1 DPR/lvl damage, do not adjust minion damage unless you remove its own additional damage ability. Tactics are as for the secondary role and Weakness and/or Resistances are also according to the secondary role. In addition to the secondary role's abilities minions are also always weak vs. suppress and suppressing them will reduce damage to 1 DPR/lvl and remove any special ability they have for the turn. Last edited by Rothe; 7th of January, 2010 at 02:43.
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#4
9th of May, 2009, 04:50
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SETTING UP A COMBAT CHALLENGE
Follow the steps below: 1) Define DC based on character level and desired challenge. Code:
Lvl 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 DC 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 Lvl 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 DC 27 27 28 28 29 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 3) See how many successful checks the players have to make to gain a partial victory and how many are needed for victory. Decide on what happens on each outcome besides taking damage and loss of powers that are defined later here. Code:
Players Victory Partial Failure
Victory
2 4+ 3 Less than 3
3 6+ 4-5 Less than 4
4 7+ 5-6 Less than 5
5 8+ 6-7 Less than 6
6 10+ 8-9 Less than 8
7 12+ 10-11 Less than 10
On each of the three rounds the following happens: Players go in their preferred order, selecting an opponent in turn, and describe how they are going to fight that opponent. Selecting the opponents makes a difference, since you can have an easier time to assault a controller if you block a soldier for example. So, the players can come up with a plan on how they will fight. Roll for the relevant skill and record the success and failure, keeping a running total for the whole challenge - a natural "20" rolled means that you gain two successes. Note for each monster how they were defeated on that round, in case the monster role has an effect based on that. At the end of each round, sum up the damage from the monsters based on their damage per round and add it to the challenge's total damage. Once everyone has rolled their checks, a new round begins until three full rounds have passed. Options during the challenge that are usable by the players: Use an action point to reroll a check. Use a daily power or a daily utility power to reroll a check. The character gets an extra +2 to the reroll for a daily power. "Going for broke", as in the obsidian skill challenge. Try to achieve two successes by rolling at -5 by using really risky last ditch effort. (Only on round III) Combat stunts: A character can use a normal skill (non-combat skill) to make a stunt in combat. Such stunts should be allowed once per challenge per skill. A particular stunt counts as an attack skill (e.g. acrobatics used to get past enemies could be assault on a controller in the back) based on the action and how the DM sees the usefulness of that stunt in combat. Outcome Of the Challenge At the end of the challenge, check the total number of successful checks against the required amount for partial victory and victory. There can be many names for the defeat and partial victory, based on what they mean in the case of a specific combat challenge. The DM should describe in the end of the challenge what happens. Results of the outcomes: Defeat Each character has to use up an action point or a daily power. If the characters fail to do so, they take the damage total as double damage. See the damage distribution later. Partial victory The team takes the full damage listed. Victory The team takes half damage. Distributing the damage Divide the damage equally into portions numbering three times the number of characters. Each character takes damage equal to the portion, and the rest of the portions can be divided as the characters wish. Should be tuned ... Perhaps you need to divide only by two. Optional rule: Defenders are the only characters who can take more damage than two portions. Last edited by Rothe; 7th of January, 2010 at 02:45.
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#5
9th of May, 2009, 04:51
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OPTIONAL RULES:
Including a skill challenge element: You can include a skill challenge element using a normal skill, by replacing half the enemies with challenging elements like traps and such. These can be defeated using normal skills appropriate for those. You can set requirements like "each character must climb the wall or swim the moat once during this challenge" etc. Avoid requiring successful checks and try to allow at least three skills. You could define a damage value for the skill challenge events or just have the challenge deal less damage and have more effect on the plot based on how it goes. Natural "20": Instead of giving an extra success, give an extra attack against a different monster (or the same one if it is an elite or solo). This rule will be in play in all combats. Last edited by LeadPal; 6th of January, 2010 at 12:57.
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#6
9th of May, 2009, 04:53
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So, there it is. Please comment.
I did not use a whole lot of time for editing it, so mistakes are going to be there. Also, the formatting is a bit sketchy now, but I tried to highlight the crunch parts. It should be quite simple and I hope to test it. Perhaps we could have a simple forum test challenge?
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#7
9th of May, 2009, 14:33
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A few test challenges, I think, at varying levels, with varying opponents. There's too much to take in here to judge it without a lot of playtesting and math.
Be sure to post this version on Dragon Avenue.
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#8
9th of May, 2009, 14:46
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The damage part is one thing that needs to be adjusted. I did not want to put equal damage for all the monsters, because then they would be too similar. The DM needs to add in varying roles for the monsters to balance the damage.
Also, I am not sure on how the support/suppress could be made more unique. Currently the monsters don't give penalties to it (like soldiers do on assaulting others) but I am not sure that is enough.
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#9
13th of May, 2009, 13:09
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I'm not sure DPR is a good way to allocate damage; it's imprecise, and 3 DPR/level scales too much faster than surge values. Even 2 DPR/level probably scales too fast. It might be better to make the challenge remove healing surges at the end of the combat, based on the number of successes, and distinguish the roles entirely based on how they influence the skills.
Block is easily the best skill. It takes no penalties, and it reduces damage and removes other penalties too. Spending a daily power might deserve a bigger effect, since you're giving up the opportunity to use a cool ability in a real combat.
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#10
13th of May, 2009, 14:04
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I know the internal balancing of the different skills is necessary. There should be monsters which are strong against blocking for instance.
The idea is that the blocking character has to act first, to get rid of the penalties to the others. Currently there is really no major drawback to block though. I tried to balance this thing around level 10, since I guess most of the gaming I do is around 5-15 levels. It should not break down too badly at higher levels either. You can adjust the difficulty by making the level of the encounter lower - this results in less damage and lower DC. One thing I am pretty confident about is using damage instead of surges. I tried to make a system with surges, but it is just too fixed and not really fair on defenders. Defenders have more hp per surge, so damage makes it scale more like a normal fight. Especially since defenders can take more damage parcels (and thus use fewer surges to soak up damage). I know the damage scales up faster than surge values. I just think that since healing powers also get better at higher levels, it compensates a lot. I was aiming for about 1,5 damage/level per round per character, which would be about 4,5 damage per level if you don't fully succeed. For example, at level 10 it would mean something like 45 damage from a fight, which is about 3 surges to a defender, or a bit less. This is basically the max you take unless you are able to fully win, which halves the damage. That would mean about 1,5 surges lost, which should be ok. That is practically one surge, since the healing powers can get you more than half a surge for free. This last part is what I was trying to fit into the scaling. You should test it a bit if you can. I did not do epic tests for it myself. And I did not really think about parties with one sided skills, like all defenders - this needs work still. Anyway, don't forget that if you need to have a fight costing about 2-3 surges, you need to take damage more than the value of those surges because of healing. Also, if you only use surges, healing does not help. This is not really fair to parties with leaders vs. parties without leaders. Last edited by Rothe; 13th of May, 2009 at 14:13.
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#11
13th of May, 2009, 14:09
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To continue, I tried to make blocking necessary, but maybe I made it too good. There should be some kind of penalty for having too many blockers and no assaulters. There are a few enemy types that are weak against assault, which should help. Also, command is not penalized or strong against anything - although it does also not help to get rid of the penalties if you are acting first.
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#12
13th of May, 2009, 14:12
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I edited the minions. Now they cause trouble if they are not suppressed or assaulted. Blocking does not help.
Also, I edited brutes to let suppression lower damage too. Last edited by Rothe; 13th of May, 2009 at 14:15.
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#13
13th of May, 2009, 15:50
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Both Brute and Soldier should probably deal 2 DPR/level; brutes have below average attack bonuses, and soldiers have above average attack bonuses, which would balance out. A combat with multiple brutes could be overwhelming if there aren't enough defenders to block them all. I'll try to figure out how accurately DPR compares with the official damage and to-hit guidelines.
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#14
13th of May, 2009, 23:00
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DPR in the case of a combat challenge with three rounds should be
DPR ~ Damage per combat / 3 And this is when things don't go particularly well (partial victory). Remember that it is halved if you achieve Victory. OH, and obviously the DM should avoid using solely brutes and so on. Mixing up the opposition is important. I think many brutes could be "brutal" but then again you could just use less monsters to balance it out. It is not a foolproof system, but it should not result in character death either. Failures are kind of rare as everyone will have a trained skill to use, perhaps at -2 if things don't go too well. The idea of the -2's is that it should not be always possible to roll with full skill, as everyone's skills are going to be based on their highest ability modifier and are considered trained. For resolving the challenges, I recommend this: Everyone states what they do. A leader should state his actions last if he wants to use command, but he could always say that he uses it if a particular block fails etc. Then the DM resolves the actions in the order that makes most sense. The order does make a difference. Still, since there are only three rounds, and you can use similar tactics on each round, it should not be too difficult to solve it. Last edited by Rothe; 13th of May, 2009 at 23:06.
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#15
13th of May, 2009, 23:07
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And hey, those tables for DC's and such are really neat. Thanks!
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#16
13th of May, 2009, 23:50
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I'm still trying to pin down the numbers, but I can tell you that the DPR is definitely too low at the beginning, and too high at the end. The slope of the progression needs to be more gentle, with a flat bonus early on. Perhaps the bonus is removed at paragon tier and changed to a penalty at epic. And of course, the higher the odds of a total victory, the higher the damage needs to be.
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#17
14th of May, 2009, 01:54
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I agree that especially at 1st - 3rd level the damage is not really high enough.
Perhaps it is caused partially by my perceptions on how the challenge should be used. For low level characters it is less likely that encounters will be trivial. Thus I would probably not use too many combat challenges for 1st level PC's. If you do use combat challenges, you are better off using a bit higher level, like 1-3 levels higher than PC level - this is better for scaling damage. I don't think too many normal combat encounters are just 1st level monsters vs. 1st level PC's either. Look at this basic calculation (hope the formatting is ok): Code:
Lvl HP SV DPC DPC/SV 1 30 7 4,5 0,6 2 36 9 9,0 1,0 3 42 10 13,5 1,4 4 48 12 18,0 1,5 5 54 13 22,5 1,7 6 60 15 27,0 1,8 7 66 16 31,5 2,0 8 72 18 36,0 2,0 9 78 19 40,5 2,1 10 84 21 45,0 2,1 11 90 22 49,5 2,3 12 96 24 54,0 2,3 13 102 25 58,5 2,3 14 108 27 63,0 2,3 15 114 28 67,5 2,4 16 120 30 72,0 2,4 17 126 31 76,5 2,5 18 132 33 81,0 2,5 19 138 34 85,5 2,5 20 144 36 90,0 2,5 21 150 37 94,5 2,6 22 156 39 99,0 2,5 23 162 40 103,5 2,6 24 168 42 108,0 2,6 25 174 43 112,5 2,6 26 180 45 117,0 2,6 27 186 46 121,5 2,6 28 192 48 126,0 2,6 29 198 49 130,5 2,7 30 204 51 135,0 2,6 The problem is clearly at 1st-2nd level. After that it should start to work out ok. Perhaps you should refrain from even using a 1st level challenge, or if you do, treat it as a 2nd level challenge for damage only. Using 2nd level challenges for 1st level characters is actually going to be pretty much ok. Last edited by Rothe; 14th of May, 2009 at 02:05.
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#19
14th of May, 2009, 02:07
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HP = max. hit point total for an average defender
(assuming 30 hp at 1st, +6/lvl after 1st) SV = surge value DCP = damage per combat (assuming partial victory) DCP/SV = damage in surges per combat (for the defender hp)
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#20
14th of May, 2009, 02:09
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Just for future reference, I suck at posting tables... But I got it right this time, I think. Any tips for it?
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#21
14th of May, 2009, 02:16
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If you're already formatted correctly using courier, and type the code tags in yourself instead of using the accursed devil-buttons, you should be okay.
So, how did you settle on this DPC?
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#22
14th of May, 2009, 02:18
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I also did the math on DPC/(SV+H) for the level scale, where H is the assumed extra healing dice for leader powers (using cleric as the baseline). It still holds up quite well.
From 3rd to 30th the result is 1 ... 1,9 which is reasonable. That means, you lose 1 surge if you get healed with a power, maybe 2. Stuff like healer's lore is not in there. So, the expected 1,5 damage / level / round looks ok, a bit higher number does not ruin it either since the assumed surge losses are low. Should be good enough to do the final fix up with scaling the encounter DC and level.
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#23
14th of May, 2009, 02:21
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I assumed 1,5 damage per level each round of the challenge to come up with the DPC.
DPC is basically the monster damage values times three. Using more brutes etc. is going to make the damage higher. Using more minions etc. is going to make it lower. I did consider making all monster damage equal, but it makes all the opponents seem the same, which might not be too much fun. Remember that this is so freeform that the DM does not have to use the DMG recommended encounter templates at all, since he can pretty much eyeball the expected damage for a given outcome and see if it is reasonable. Controllers do mix it up a bit, especially if DC is increased for some reason. EDIT: that is, 1,5 damage per level per round per opponent. Assuming equal amount of opponents. Obviously minions are good fill ins to tailor the described number of enemies (5? 15? 50?) to fit inside the challenge. You don't even have to consider one minion monster as 4-5 minions. It could be more, or less.
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#24
14th of May, 2009, 02:27
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The damage doesn't really matter until the end of the combat, so I don't think it changes the fun factor of the combat much; most monsters deal very similar damage over the course of a combat, anyways. The fun is more in the tactics, description, and quicker pace.
Do you think this could handle monsters of varying levels in a single encounter?
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#25
14th of May, 2009, 02:51
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If you use varying levels of monsters, then obviously you should limit the attack skills on the basis of "one try per monster per turn" other than for things like command skill used or brutes. That is ok.
I was thinking to limit it anyway, but I am not sure if it will work well yet.
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