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  #1  
Unread 24th of May, 2003, 05:34
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Epic Ideas HELP!!!

OK I have noticed that generally once you get to epic levels you run into a problem, continueing past level 20 in a core class really sucks in comparison to taking another class or a PrC. Even when the PrC is "appropriate" to your character idea you are essentially forced to multi class or take PrCs else you are left behind. I have been thinking through a solution that could easily help.

Remember originally they had Epic Levels as seperate from classes, I was thinking of a twist on that idea. A class you could take, Epic Character or something, that doesn't give you anything save a feat and skill points.

Was thinkign that the feat could be "special" Know how there are alot of feats int he ELH to enhance class and PrC skills, like the black gaurds death touch and the bards songs? Well these feats coudl also be used to purchase advancements in class skills you already have, but simply are not coverd in the ELH, for example the myriad of PrCs from other sources. In essance allowing you to either catch up on feats or enhanceing what you already have without getting alot of crap you don't want. Yes this does sound like a muchkin's dream. But I would like to be able to have a character, IE a rougue who wants to be the master politician to take skill focuses and lots fo skill points without getting the sneak attack any higher etc. Think of the wizard who now wants to do some intense research on the planes, it could easily take 5 levels to get enough skill points to get some decent ranks in all the planes. This wizard is willing to sacrifice familiar bonuses and caster level for the skill points, but doesn't want all the crap of say LoreMaster or the like.

Anyone have any suggestions ideas balance issue? Not that epic level is balanced anyway....
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Unread 24th of May, 2003, 09:20
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Hmm sounds interesting, although the idea of a feat and skill points is a bit ify. Even if you are sacrificing class abilities for them. Like even then fighter dosen't gain that. I don't know, perhaps you could just create a feat that is better then Epic Skill Focus.
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Unread 24th of May, 2003, 22:31
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Your right epic skill focus does nice things... How about a feat that grants 10skill points no bonus for int...
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Unread 25th of May, 2003, 09:17
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Epic Skill Focus does that
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Unread 25th of May, 2003, 09:25
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Thought that gave you bonuses to a skill you already had focus in not just 10 skill points...
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Unread 26th of May, 2003, 11:30
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If you're thinking of a Greater Epic Skill Focus, remember to raise the requirements a little. Perhaps 30+ ranks in the skill and Epic Skill Focus (skill in question).
Or Knowledge (variable) and Spellcraft 30+ ranks and Epic Spell Focus (school in question) for +8 to save DCs vs the school as well.
BAB 30+ and Legendary Grappler for another +10 to grapple checks.
etc.

There can always be one more version of feats like these. Just proportionately hike the requirements.
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Unread 26th of May, 2003, 13:12
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Yeah but I don't feel it requires all those extra feats, eg. Epic Spell Focus etc. I would stick with 30+ ranks in the skill and Epic Skill Focus in the appropriate skill. I think that would be enough for another +10 bonus that stacks, or perhaps a tad more if you wish to put one or two more pre-reqs on it, just try to make the subsequent pre-reqs appropriate though.
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Unread 26th of May, 2003, 21:28
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Well my goal is to create a class so that you can stick with one class and not get screwed, I don't planb on considerign this "cleass" a class. Cause why WOULDN'T a wizard take archmage, or loremaster... The core classes don't offer nearly enough to prevent pcs from PrC hopping at higher level. Basicly want to offer an option toth e guy who wants to stay a druid or rogue or bard, but doesn't want to add on 4 PrCs to stay abreat with the monsters and the others..
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Unread 28th of May, 2003, 11:06
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I see your point in fighters and rogues, and even sometimes wizards. Druids, however, can shapechange into epic dragons, which puts them as playable at any level.

Besides, 3.5 is doing major things to all the classes (Except maybe fighter, which is perfect in it's simplicity). If you haven't seen it yet, the 3.5 ranger is a lot better, even though the archtype is enforced past what it needs to be.
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Unread 28th of May, 2003, 11:22
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Actually there is a rule some where about the shape you become as a druid can't have more HD then you do... That way a 23rd level druid can't become epic vermin thingies...
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Unread 28th of May, 2003, 11:41
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Why a wizard would stay a wizard

When you branch off to a prestige caster class and gain all those nifty abilities, you also no longer increase abilities in the core class. ALL you get to advance is spellls, no other abilities, such as your familiar and your free wizard feats every five levels. Sorcerers only have the familiar, but that is a very important often overlooked ability. Your familiar does not gain the hitpoints or special abilities (like spell resistance) for your prestige classes, only for your basic class levels.

Did you know that familiars gain the epic feat Familiar Spell (select a level 8 or lower spell that you know, the familiar can cast that spell for free once a day) every 10 levels, starting at 21? Their natural armor and intelligence also go up, as well as spell resistance. These benifits are only for epic wizards and epic sorcerers however, and if you gained levels in prestiege classes you have to go back and take those wizard levels you skipped all the way to 20 before you can become an epic wizard (epic wizard starts at wizard level 21)..

Once you hit level 21 in wizard or sorcerer you also start gaining bonus feats every 3 levels, and these can be epic feats. If you are a level 10 wizard level 10 prestiege class you have to go back to wizard level 11 and only gain feats every five levels until you hit character level 31 (level 21 wizard level 10 prestiege). Unless your DM is nice and bends the rules, your wizard bonus feats for wizard levels 15 and 20 cannot be epic feats, even though you are an epic character, because they are not on the wizard list (they are on the epic wizard list, and you are not one yet). Only your regular feats you gain every 3 character levels would be able to be epic.

In my mind, if you plan on going epic, don't waste your time on a prestige classes unless you pick one that you can extend into epic levels (and you plan to do so). Epic feats blow most prestige class abilites away.
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Unread 28th of May, 2003, 11:50
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Obviously you never met a beidamonk in a dark alley...

Many times the PRC allow you access to things you couldn't normally get...
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Unread 28th of May, 2003, 12:08
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few examples I just thought of:
Incantrix gets you the Improved MetaMagic way earlier
Archmage just kicks ass
Famaliars are overlooked cause very few are good enough to consider, unles you take improved famliar. Many times you can just summon somthing to do what you need, leadership is a much bettter investment then improved famliar.
And really if you think about it and do it right the bonus feats from the PrCs are used to get the regular feats that are the prereques you need for the epic feats you want..
Skill Focus can become important especially with alot of the PrCs.

And frankly a shifter can kick the ass of of most druids... Just the item use in forms and all those free epic feats yeah their spells suck, but take some levels as druid once you hit epic and you have no need for most epic druid feats as you already have them

yes Fighter is a bad example, rogue would be but there are so many ways to be a rogue that the epic level default is just one aspect.

Clerics well again they are to general for my likely... really dislike the cleric class period. But thats another rant...

Yes I know about the revisions in 3.5 and since i don't have a book in my hand workign off what I KNOW is fact which is 3.0 and I thank god for thethe ranger fix that is comming. Maybe they will even get rid of the monk... (personal aversion)

/end rant
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Unread 28th of May, 2003, 12:48
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Familars vs summons

A familiar is not a summoned critter, so is not kept at bay by a simple portection spell, nor killed by a simple banishment spell... it also does not require magical resources to create and maintain. It is always with you and has many advantages over a simple summons. It is the equivalant of a paladin's warhorse for wizards and sorcerers.

As far as leadership vs improved familiar goes, you can take *both*. You don't have to pick just one
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Unread 28th of May, 2003, 14:03
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I don't have a name now, but here's the skinny:

Feat
Benefit: You choose 1 other class with spellcasting ability (Including +1 level PrCs). Your Wiz/Sor levels stack with it for purposes of a familiar's special abilities.

Either straight wiz/sor, or your familiar dies fast. Not a good thing. s'why I came up with this.
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Unread 28th of May, 2003, 22:44
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Are you serious Smrasmus who cares about familairs. Seriously the only decent familair is the toad due to its Con bonus. There is a spell in Tome and Blood called Familiar Pocket, it will keep your familair all nice and safe. But when you get to epic you need those cool PrC abilities to survive, Incantrix and Archmage are essential for a decent wizard come lv20. I can also guarantee you if you met one of my wizards with one of your crappy straight lv20 wizards you would be slaughtered, what good will a familair be in scha situation?

I am sorry fi this has come off rude but I just can't believe you would bring something like this up as a benefit of taking straight class levels up to level 20....like egad man!!!
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  #17  
Unread 29th of May, 2003, 00:16
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I was trying to be polite Sponkle but thats the point I am makeing... Until they come up with some more buffed up familair feats etc they are not worth much. Much like my PsiCrystal system where you can spend PP to improve it. Allows for more personalized and unique crystals, and easily balancing the power...
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Unread 29th of May, 2003, 03:19
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I am not talking about straight level 20... of course a straight level 20 wizard is weaker than a prestiege class caster. I am talking about EPIC levels however. A level 30 wizard is more powrefull than a level 20 wizard with 10 levels of prestiege classes.

Yes the prestiege classes have some nice abilities. The epic feats however totally overshadow them. If you don't mind being weaker to 20, then you get more power afterwards. Kind of like the way wizards vs warriors work in the first place. If you are a good enough player, you will survive just fine to 20.

As for familiars, if you think they stink, you have no imagination

Ever see a wizard with a blink dog familiar? You know that familiars can deliver touch spells for the caster right? You also know blink dogs can dimension door freely once a round and act right after arriving?

You also know that familiars can share personal spells that you cast on yourself right? Shapechange or iron body anyone?

At level 31, familiars have two epic familiar spell feats (described in an earlier post) , +16 natural armor, a very high INT, and a spell resist of 36. Combine that with almost any improved familiar and you have something that is worth having.
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