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  #26  
Unread 23rd of April, 2007, 04:17
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The non psionic dragons, unicorns, Angels, Demons, Devils, beholders, chimeras, etc.
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  #27  
Unread 23rd of April, 2007, 07:58
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Chromatic & Metallic Dragons: I'm probably going to replace the sorcerous spellcasting of one group with incarnum and of the other with martial disciplines. This will give me one group of dragons with each type of magic. I still haven't worked out exact details for this, however. Also, CS history has dragons being very rare anyway.

Unicorns: Other than their spell like abilities, unicorns aren't really a problem. If I ever need a unicorn in a game, I'll replace it's spell-like abilities with thematically appropriate psionics, soulmelds, or martial manuvers.

Angels, Demons, Devils, and other outsiders: These will need some tweaking to replace their spell-like abilities, and in some cases are going to have their alignment shifted, but otherwise will be used as is.

Beholders: Probably going to just get rid of them. Their antimagic cone would function just fine, but I don't know that it would be possible to properly adjust all their eye-rays.

Chimera: There is no reason not to use this creature as is.
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Unread 23rd of April, 2007, 08:36
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I mention some of those creatures because their whole existance is based on magic, thus the type "Magical Beast."

Chimeras are created by magic, after all.

I was not referring to mechanics purely, but from a flavor perspective.
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  #29  
Unread 24th of April, 2007, 00:00
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Ah, I misunderstood.

Magic still exists in this world, even if its practice doesn't take the usual forms. Said creatures can and do exist (albeit with some tweaks to their mechanics).
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Unread 24th of April, 2007, 03:35
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Oh, okay.
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Unread 24th of April, 2007, 08:13
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Note: You still haven't taken spellthief off the list to be fixed.

Second, here's the premise of the "Martial Assassin"

Same as Assassin except as noted.

Requirements
Add:
Martial Maneuvers: Must know at least one shadow hand maneuver

Class Features
Remove Spellcasting

Add
Maneuvers: At each even numbered level, you gain one new maneuver from the Shadow Hand. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. You add your full Martial Assassin levels to your initiator level to determine your highest level maneuvers known.
At 5th level and 9th level, you gain an additional maneuver readied per day.

Stances Known: At 3rd level and 7th level, you learn a new stance from the Shadow Hand. You must meet a stance's prerequisite to learn it.
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  #32  
Unread 25th of April, 2007, 06:58
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I'd love to be in this game, as I'm very impressed by how many of the principle ideas parallel my own. I'll throw in my two cents after I've combed over every nuance of the first page.
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Unread 25th of April, 2007, 07:43
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Nooctyx -
My first impression is that I like it. I especially like the fact that it's possible for a character without any levels in a martial discipline class to get in. I want to sit down with a copy of ToB and look at the Shadow Hand manuvers just to make sure, but I expect that to be the way I adapt the class.
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Unread 26th of April, 2007, 07:29
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Something I found a little odd:

The reality of magic means that the spread of attitudes amongst the populace is more like that of modern day Earth rather than medieval Europe (despite the tech level of the setting).
Fair enough, but...

There are no magic items of any kind.
Unless practitioners of magic are extremely common, this seems difficult to imagine. Certainly, using magic a character can do things equivalent or superiour to what is possible IRL, but for ordinary folk, there is no access to that sort of thing, unless you have the direct and immediate action of a psion or incarnate or whatnot; and because this would make large-scale communication impossible, it's not likely to profoundly change religion.

There are some possible fixes to this, of course:

1) Compromise magic items. Doing it directly is a bad idea that would damage the setting, of course, but there are alternatives; perhaps there could be ways of imbuing items with power to create long-lasting but temporary items. I think this is the most attractive idea, but it could be difficult to implement.

2) The Eberron Strategy. I'm operating on the assumption that magic is, in the vast majority, moderately rare and mysterious in this setting; however, if magic is an ordinary force like technology today, much of the issue disappears. Implementing some new form of the magewright class could do the trick. But then, that's little better than lifting the ban on magic items. I don't suggest this option. At all.

3) Compromise religion. Since only an elite minority has access to magic, they're the only ones who treat religion in the same way that modern humans do. But, the huddled masses are ignorant of that, and believe that faith can move mountains--literally. The interesting thing about this is that it keeps a spotlight on religion and keeps it influencing the entire setting, while preventing it from dominating (since those most likely to come to power are also most likely to learn better). The net result might feel like Europe in the grip of the Renaissance. Unfortunately, it would be as difficult to explain in-game as it is out of it...

4) It's magic! You could wave your hand and ignore the whole issue. Maybe I'm just nitpicking. Not my favourite idea, but it could be effective.

5) Explain what you mean to me. Maybe you're shaking your head as you read this, fully knowing that I've missed your point entirely.


Personally, I'd go with either 1), because it would be fun to conceive, or 2), because it has a lot of flavour advantages going for it. It might also settle the issue of the crusader, which at the moment seems to gain power based on faith rather than directly from God--which may be enough to convince the common, isolated people that He's very important indeed.
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  #35  
Unread 26th of April, 2007, 08:15
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I believe he means no 'magic' items, in the sense no items based on magic. There are psionic items, and martial scrolls etc.
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Unread 26th of April, 2007, 11:07
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BP, what do you want to be changed with on the Horizon Walker?

As far as I can see, the HW only has one possible spell like ability. You could either remove it or replace it with the psionic equivalent. Or where else do you want to go with this?
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Unread 26th of April, 2007, 12:08
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Psionic dimension door as a psi-like ability?
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  #38  
Unread 26th of April, 2007, 22:49
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I was just looking over your bard variant, and came across something ...

In the section for combine songs, you state that a bard can combine two songs into your perform check, but doing so requires a perform check of 10+required ranks of both songs.

In the example section, you don't include the 10 at all, making the checks seem easier than they should be. Also, there was a small addition error there (11+8=19, not 20). Then again, that DC should also be 10 higher now though, since it was missing that part anyways.

Also, are you going to include performance levels better than Extraordinary? They mentioned them in a dragon magazine, or can be found here on page 48. Basically, it extends performances to include Incredible performances and Legendary performances. These performances earn pp instead of gp, and combining that with refine performance may be a little too much. I was just wondering what your thoughts were to this though.
Maybe make it so only bards of a certain level can do Incredible or Extraordinary performances.
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Unread 27th of April, 2007, 00:28
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Unless practitioners of magic are extremely common, this seems difficult to imagine. Certainly, using magic a character can do things equivalent or superiour to what is possible IRL, but for ordinary folk, there is no access to that sort of thing, unless you have the direct and immediate action of a psion or incarnate or whatnot; and because this would make large-scale communication impossible, it's not likely to profoundly change religion.
Actually, it is very easy for even characters with NPC classes to have access to just a little bit of magic under the three systems I'm using because of feats. In particular Shape Soulmeld, Martial Stance, Martial Study, and Hidden Talent come to mind, but there are others as well. As a result, it shouldn't be suprising that the king's chief diplomat, even if he's just an expert, has a Soulspeaker Criclet shaped all the time (allowing him to understand all languages). Or the local blacksmith (again, an expert) might have the psionic power control flames to allow him better control of his forge. Local militia members might have bolt so that they always have access to a few extra (and more potent) arrows than they carry around in their quiver. Etc.

The result is that most everyone will encounter magic on a regular, if not daily basis.

I believe he means no 'magic' items, in the sense no items based on magic. There are psionic items, and martial scrolls etc.
No. I mean none, period. No psionic items, no martial scrolls.

BP, what do you want to be changed with on the Horizon Walker?

As far as I can see, the HW only has one possible spell like ability. You could either remove it or replace it with the psionic equivalent. Or where else do you want to go with this?
You have it right. Only Shifting Planar mastery needs to be modified, and as Link pointed out, there is a psionic equivalent power now (in CP) so it would be easiest to just make that switch. As I recall, however, there is also a soulmeld that would work, so I'm not sure which I'd prefer to use.

In the example section, you don't include the 10 at all, making the checks seem easier than they should be. Also, there was a small addition error there (11+8=19, not 20). Then again, that DC should also be 10 higher now though, since it was missing that part anyways.
Thanks for that catch. I've fixed it.

Also, are you going to include performance levels better than Extraordinary? They mentioned them in a dragon magazine, or can be found here on page 48. Basically, it extends performances to include Incredible performances and Legendary performances. These performances earn pp instead of gp, and combining that with refine performance may be a little too much. I was just wondering what your thoughts were to this though.
Maybe make it so only bards of a certain level can do Incredible or Extraordinary performances.
Dragon Magazine is not an allowed resource, so no Incredible or Legendary performances.
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Unread 27th of April, 2007, 01:21
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You have it right. Only Shifting Planar mastery needs to be modified, and as Link pointed out, there is a psionic equivalent power now (in CP) so it would be easiest to just make that switch. As I recall, however, there is also a soulmeld that would work, so I'm not sure which I'd prefer to use.
I personally would go with the psionic equivalent.

I believe one of the reasons you would want to go with the incarnum equivalent is because it might help balance out the different styles of magic. I don't think that would really be useful in this case though, because just one small aspect of either psionics or incarnum would be useful for the PrC. I don't believe it would unbalance the options of the PrC's for different kinds of magic options.
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Unread 27th of April, 2007, 01:26
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Besides, the psionic version is just plain easier to deal with mechanically. In all effects, if you use psionic dimension door as a psi-like ability, there will be essentially no change whatsoever.

BTW: Noocytx, I like your assassin.
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Unread 27th of April, 2007, 06:56
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Just to bring this back up again,

Where would you like to go with the dragons.

I see you would like to make some dragons with martial disciplines and some with incarnum.

Where exactly with the martial disciplines? Do you want to create a dragon for each martial discipline (9 different dragons), or just a handful with different mixes of the martial disciplines for the dragons (Like 5 dragons).
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Unread 27th of April, 2007, 07:12
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Under RAW, dragons over a certain age cast spells (and have spells known) as a sorcerer of some level (which varies with color and age category). What I think I want to do is replace this with them having the ability to shape soulmelds or perform martial maneuvers as a incarnum or martial discipline class of that level. I'd like for either all metallic to be incarnum users and all chromatic to be martial discipline users or vis-versa as this will create a balance with the gem dragons (who are all psionics users) amongst the magical traditions in dragonkind. This may, however, prejudice the magic traditions to certain alignments, so I'm not adverse to mixing and matching.

Example: A Young Gold dragon casts spells as a 1st level sorcerer according to the MM. Since that kind of spellcasting is prohibited in this CS, I might instead give them the ability to shape soulmelds as a 1st level incarnate (note I'm picking a magic genre and class randomly here, not actually making a decision).
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Unread 27th of April, 2007, 07:38
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I like the idea of keeping each style of dragon one way (i.e. Chromatic=Martial, Metallic=Incarnum, Gem=Psionic)

What I would do though, in order to create balance, would be alter the alignments so that they vary within the subset.
Such as
Gold=LG, Silver=CG, Brass=N, Copper=LE, Bronze=CE
Black=CE, Red=LE, Blue=N, Green=CG, White=LG
I would also modify the Gem dragons, so that they represent the neutral axis of each (N, NE, NG, LN, CN)

I think changing alignments would seem better than mixing and matching styles with dragon colors. I'm not so sure if this would work out, but I like the idea better.
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Unread 28th of April, 2007, 02:57
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I too would prefer to change alignments than mixing styles. It might take some getting used to for the players (and me), but it gives some clear themes to the magic.
Oh, and Gem Dragons are already neutral (Amethyst=N, Crystal=CN, Emerald=LN, Sapphire=LN, Topaz=CN) or were suggesting that two should be switched to NG and NE?
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Unread 28th of April, 2007, 03:02
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Yea, I would make a switch so that one would be NG and one NE. Just to help round everything out there.

Any while it might take a little to get use to, so is everything else. The calendar, the new style of magic, everything.
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Unread 29th of April, 2007, 03:08
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Not wanting to post twice in a row, but I have another question for you.

Do you want three different dragon disciples? One for each style of magic.
Since the original dragon disciple was modified only on core rules, it only dealt with spellcasting.

Do you want to add in multiple paths for the DD to follow, one for martial disciplines, one for incarnum, and one for psionics? This seems to be the natural path to follow.

(I'm also making this my next project probably)
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Unread 29th of April, 2007, 03:28
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I think, given what we've been talking about for dragons themselves, there should be 3 different tracks for the DD and that the track you follow is dictated by your choice of dragon type.

For instance, if you choose to be a Topaz Dragon Disciple, you should be forced down a psionic track (as Topaz dragons are psionic).
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Unread 29th of April, 2007, 08:54
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I agree with that.

Anything you want me to work on BP? I'll help with anything.
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Unread 29th of April, 2007, 22:30
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No. I don't have anything in particular that I want people to focus on. What I'm trying to do right now is work through my stack of books and list classes on the banned or need to be modified lists as appropriate. Kind of generating a list of "things to do".

Actually, now that I think about it, there are plenty of races that need work, and even several of those that have "been done" which need revision. If you want to start with something you could start there (or anywhere else you want).
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