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  #26  
Unread 9th of June, 2011, 17:15
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So is my gold 150 for being a fighter? Or that plus the gold for also being a magic-user, 60 ? Or maybe the average?

Is it just me, or is a composite longbow actually worse than the regular kind...?
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  #27  
Unread 9th of June, 2011, 18:25
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What's the deal with these "Armor Class Adjustment" tables? Are these adjustments to the AC, or the hit, or what? Most of them go from negative to positive, but sometimes the don't.
I think the deal is that they adjust armor class, and so positive numbers are good for the attacker. Some weapons have significant negatives at low AC, so that means that armor is particularly effective against them. Picks go from positive at low AC to negative at high AC, since they pierce armor more effectively but then its sort of hard to get a good hit with them on an unarmored opponent.
But then a footman's mace has +1 +1 0 0 0 0 0 0 and then +1 at AC 9 and -1 at 10. Which effectively switches them? But why? And then lots of them have some positive at 8, 0 at 9, and then even more of a positive at 10. Some of them have the same modifier at either end but then higher or lower in the middle.
Also I still haven't figured out which weapons are necessarily two-handed.

So ridiculous.
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  #28  
Unread 9th of June, 2011, 19:37
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I'm pretty sure they're added to the to-hit roll, in an attempt to model the effectiveness of different weapons against different types of armour. If you look at the Armor Class Table, AC 10 is "none", AC 9 is "shield only", AC 8 is "leather or padded armor", and so on, up to AC 2, which is "plate mail and shield".

You can tell this is the idea by looking at some of the uneven totals. For example, a fist or open hand is a +4 vs AC 10, +0 vs AC 9, and +2 vs AC 8. This is because a shield is way more useful for deflecting unarmed attacks than a suit of leather.

Of course, many of the modifiers make no sense at all. I can understand some of them might be for balance, but why is it easier to hit a naked guy with a footman's mace if he's using a shield? And the whole table is screwed up when you factor in magic equipment or dexterity bonuses, or for that matter the basically arbitrary monster ACs--they only work if you're only looking at the base AC of a humanoid according to the table.

...For all I know that might actually be how they're supposed to work. A lot of important rules are hidden deep in rambling.

In conclusion just shut up and use a Bohemian Ear-Spoon.
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  #29  
Unread 9th of June, 2011, 21:16
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Leadpal good job attempting to explain...unfortunately all the answers were taken to the grave with their creator. We can but try to interpret them the best way we can (sort of like the U.S. constitution ;p)
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  #30  
Unread 9th of June, 2011, 22:00
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So with the footman' mace, for example, it's easier for me to hit someone with a shield than it is to hit a naked person? Hell, it's easier for me to hit a guy in plate with a shield than it is to hit a naked guy? That's weird.
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  #31  
Unread 9th of June, 2011, 22:41
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No, the guy in plate is relatively harder to hit. I can accept that the mace might be good for battering through heavy armour. But it's absolutely easier to hit a naked guy if he's carrying a shield, which makes no damn sense.

EDIT: although I haven't really deciphered the attack matrices yet, so I could be wrong. 1e is all over the place.

Last edited by LeadPal; 9th of June, 2011 at 22:45.
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  #32  
Unread 9th of June, 2011, 22:47
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I see what you're saying. Yeah, the roll against an AC 2 is harder than AC 10, intrinsically. But the mace gets a bonus to hit the guy in armor and a penalty to hit the naked guy.

In any case, it's just weird.
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  #33  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 00:13
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Gold roll for the Elven Thief of Stealiness: 70
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  #34  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 08:27
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Originally Posted by Mercutio # I see what you're saying. Yeah, the roll against an AC 2 is harder than AC 10, intrinsically. But the mace gets a bonus to hit the guy in armor and a penalty to hit the naked guy.

In any case, it's just weird.
after careful thought I think I have come up with an answer to this enigma that shall satisfy all.... what we are failing to take into account is the design of the weapon. In the case of the mace (footman's) we see that there is a bonus to attack a heavily armored target but has a penalty vs someone wearing nothing but his skin. This is due to the general make of the weapon vs the mobility of the target. The mace is designed to be used against armored opponents to quote wikipedia:

"During the Middle Ages metal armour and chain mail protected against the blows of edged weapons and blocked arrows and other projectiles. Solid metal maces and war hammers proved able to inflict damage on well armoured knights, as the force of a blow from a mace is large enough to cause damage without penetrating the armour."

so you are using a weapon for it's designed purpose on a slow moving target and therefore have an easier time hitting the target. On the other hand against an unarmored target the mace is by comparison heavy and slow when matched with someone relying on agility so has a lower chance of hitting.

Does this make sense to anyone but me?
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  #35  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 08:55
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What I don't understand is it gives a +1 against AC 9 but a -1 against AC 10, effectively switching them. Further, there's no modifier for ACs 6, 7 or 8, so it doesn't feel like a continuation of the "good against armored opponents" idea. I could understand if it was a -1 for both 9 and 10, but the way it switches them seems really strange.
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  #36  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 09:07
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like I said it was the best I could come up with for the why of it all unless there are other factors to take into account where for midrange armor there is both a + and a - being considered which causes it to break even but the + is a bit heavier on the AC 9 (possibly the inclusion of a shield which an unarmored target might use a little less effectively than when used with armor)
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  #37  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 09:13
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Originally Posted by Captain Gavis # after careful thought I think I have come up with an answer to this enigma that shall satisfy all.... what we are failing to take into account is the design of the weapon.
No, that's what we're getting at. Take another example, composite longbows vs regular longbows. Composite longbows deal the same damage, have less range, and are worse against all armour than regular longbows. Yet cost more. Why? If it's not an outright error I'd guess bias for English Longbows.

Also, studded leather and ring mail have the same AC value, and thus the same weapon modifiers, yet in reality they protect against very different weapons--piercing weapons go through mail easily, but it's better against slashing weapons. The chart doesn't model this at all.

It's also easy to imagine arbitrary weapons that contradict the results on the table, for example an iron golem's fist. Should the modifiers be based on the fist (shields are super-effective) or the mace (shields are worse than useless)?

The weapon chart isn't an enigma--it just straight up does not make sense when examined critically.
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  #38  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 09:23
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Just to ease everyones' minds we wont be using that chart AT ALL (you may now begin the celebration) and I have no idea why the composite bow costs more (in 3.5 they cost more because you can add your str mod to the damage)

Edit: also that particular chart is ONLY for players using weapons on Armor and not for use with monsters (iron golem's fist) or monster hides (a dragon's body)

Last edited by Captain Gavis; 10th of June, 2011 at 09:27.
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  #39  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 13:48
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Looks like all we need to begin is Leadpal to finish
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  #40  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 15:55
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But that will unbalance the weapons! SUCH IS THE PRICE OF 1E.

In all seriousness though, for all my complaints I don't mind either way. I'm merely working my way through the system. And trying to be thorough about it, so I don't think I'll get my character finished right away.

So how many spells does a 1st level magic user have in their book? ...Any? And should I go with 150 gp? You said multiclass characters will roll for hp--is that because they actually start with two hit dice?
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  #41  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 17:42
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I still think multiclassers should just average the two hit dice. We're going to halve each one we roll, right?
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  #42  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 21:32
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Originally Posted by LeadPal # So how many spells does a 1st level magic user have in their book? ...Any? And should I go with 150 gp? You said multiclass characters will roll for hp--is that because they actually start with two hit dice?
MUs start with the minimum spells known which is shown on the table for intelligence. the way they are generated is seemingly at random since you roll percentile starting with the first spell and looping through the list until you have enough spells in your book to meet the minimum. for you in particular this means you go through the MU list which contains 30 first level spells. You have a 60% chance of learning the spell and must have 7 spells to begin with in your book.

As for hit dice I was giving humans full HP at first level so that anyone who rolled wouldn't end with the minimum and kill the general happiness of the game when they died. For multis I was considering giving half max to represent average gains by a human counterpart(despite how they can't be a multiclass) and to prevent the inevitable c/ftr/mu combo that has a gargantuan HP of 22+(con*3) but I don't care if you guys don't. For level ups you can either take average HP per level or roll dice if you are in a particularly gambling mood.

For starting gold I would prefer that you take just one starting gold roll with the best for your classes. You would roll 5d4*10 for the fighter half of you.
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  #43  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 22:01
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Uh let's just say I've got 9 hp and from now on will roll 1d10/2+1d8/2. Or even better, 1d9 since we can do any sort of dice.

Also from what I've seen I'm pretty sure that there are a whole bunch of discrepancies between OSRIC and the actual book, which is kind of strange.
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  #44  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 22:10
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I think that's because, as Gral pointed out in the visitor's thread, that OSRIC incorporates things from Unearthed Arcana.
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  #45  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 22:13
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Originally Posted by zachol # Uh let's just say I've got 9 hp and from now on will roll 1d10/2+1d8/2. Or even better, 1d9 since we can do any sort of dice.
That would work IF you leveled up both classes at the same time, which will be rare since you level up faster as a cleric than as a fighter.
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  #46  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 22:14
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Zachol - For multiclass hitpoints, unless the classes you're playing advance at the exact same rate, I think you'll end up rolling (hd)/2 a lot more than the 1d9, as one will tend to level up before the other.

As for me, I'll be throwing my 1d6 and hoping for the best (I'll just get to throw it more often, as I'm a thief :-P).
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  #47  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 22:18
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since you will be leveling up one class at a time there would be no need to roll AND divide by 2. You can either roll or take average for each level.
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  #48  
Unread 10th of June, 2011, 22:41
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I see. That makes sense.
Also I'm positive I read somewhere that you divide hp rolls by how many classes you're multiclassing into. This only made sense when I realized you level in them simultaneously; I remember it striking me as really mean otherwise.

Maybe it's something from Unearthed Arcana.
Bleh.
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  #49  
Unread 11th of June, 2011, 00:46
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ATTN: time for a vote!

Do you want your characters to know each other before the game starts or no? personally I think 1st level characters with trust issues are hilarious but I will leave it up to you. NOTE NOW!
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  #50  
Unread 11th of June, 2011, 00:52
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The chaotic neutral thief is fine with being strangers. :-D
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