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  #76  
Unread 16th of November, 2005, 16:36
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I don't know much about internal organs or such, but I can at least give this a try...

So, here's my understanding of how a knife works as compared to a bullet. A bullet has much more force on average and is able to go all the way through a target; knives cannot do this unless the wielder is strong enough to punch the hilt through the target. A bullet's force is also significantly more localized, allowing it to go through the ribcage while a knife require significant skill to slide between the ribs to reach the internal organs. However, bullets are significantly easier to heal from if they don't hit any vital organs and often wind up stopping the majority of the bleeding from a wound on their own. With a knife, on the other hand, you're making a slashing motion that is designed to cover as much of the target as possible, resulting in the rupture of arteries and a much larger chance of hitting vital organs, even if the damage per square inch is less than with a bullet. Also, because a knife does not remain in the target after slashing, it doesn't stop the bleeding at all, leaving the target free to bleed profusely, much more than in a single localized bullethole. However, the bullet is more apt to cause internal bleeding because of depth of entry.

As I see it, there's a few ways to accomplish this. Using what I've said, knives could have the same damage but a continuing bleeding damage, which would certainly make Jens more useful. This would also force close combats to be faster as the whole huge AC vs. low attack bonus would allow the person who hit once to leave his enemy bleeding while he goes into total defense. Tactics-wise, this makes absolute sense: if I stab you once, I don't really have to do so over and over, I just have to avoid being stabbed myself. This is fairly simple to implement but doesn't really cover the effect of blood loss on an area, like shooting with an arm that was just hacked open. Localized damage gets pretty insane though. On the other hand is bullets relative to knives. Internal bleeding could have an X% chance per bullet wound of happening--which makes automatic weapons much more formidable in the long run-- requiring surgery after the adventure. The need for accuracy in hitting target areas could either give a bonus to the defender's AC or reduce damage by a step if the attack only barely hit, representing a hit in the organ-less area of the stomach for example. In the long run, it depends how complex we want to be. Personally, I'd be inclined to make a proficiency feat for close combat weapons (or perhaps a weapon focus feat) that includes the ability to cause the bleeding. This also injects the idea of specialization, as not every criminal knows how to use a knife as well as he does a gun. Frankly, if knives require even half the skill of fencing, a n00b is extremely apt to have no idea how to fence and is reluctant in attacking and only graze the target.

My personal preference: bleedage per round for specialists, leave bullets as is. To make sure the CC rules aren't used in a way that doesn't make sense with d20 Modern, we may need to learn squad tactics for SWAT or CT teams to figure out how to maximize firepower against CC enemies.
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  #77  
Unread 16th of November, 2005, 16:57
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That would be a tradeoff between simplicity and realism. Generally, the rules side with simplicity as far as hit points and damage goes. Are we willing to go against that?
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  #78  
Unread 16th of November, 2005, 17:22
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THC: The coup de grace action I dicatated earlier would occur when the attacker has the defender with a gun to his head, a knife to his throat, etc. There is no easy way to get out of that situation, save for a good amoutn of luck, so we can rule out the possiblity of a counter action by the defender. Thus, if an attacker has a severe advantage over a defender (knife to throat, eye, stomach, gun to head or stomach, etc), the attacker may take his attack action to deal full critical damage to the defender. The defender then must make a FORT save with a DC of X + the damage dealt, X being a multiple of five no higher than 15. I would say a DC of 10 + the damage dealt is fair.

ShadowDawn: While a bullet does have more force behind it, that very fact works against it. If a bullet impacts a target in the side and blows out his back, there is very little actual damage done. It hurts a lot, it bleeds a lot, but the person who was shot can still act and operate normally (assuming he has some combat experience). A slash from a serrated knife to that same side causes more direct damage, as a large swath of skin is ripped to shred, more blood vessels are destroyed, and it hurts more as there are more pain receptors being struck.

I would be happy simply with my revised coup de grace ruling, but THC's idea to boost each melee weapons die by one step would also be good.
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  #79  
Unread 16th of November, 2005, 17:44
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I'm still going to make those design rules. God I love writing design rules.

I shall post more tommorrow.
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  #80  
Unread 16th of November, 2005, 18:20
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“ Originally Posted by The Hive Custodian Promote all melee weapon dice by one die type, except the chainsaw (how the hell do you wield a chainsaw effectively?), katana, and three-section staff, which already got their dice promoted. ”
I would suggest making this only aply to people profivient in the use of the weapon in question and archaic weapons. If these weapons are deadly when used properly, it requires you know how to use the weapon to deadly. Unlike me.

And if you're going to modify the coup de grace, I'd like to propose that a coup de grace with a subdual weapon, it should knock out instead of kill the opponent. And maybe a coup de grace with a stun gun causes automatic failure on the save and paralyzed for 1d4 minutes instead of rounds. JaT.
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  #81  
Unread 16th of November, 2005, 18:44
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I actually like SD's suggestion more than THC's, as bullets are designed to cause their damage all at once, while knives and other blades have their primary use in causing injury over time, as opposed to all at once. Here's what I suggest:

Whenever you hit an opponent with a knife, roll D20 + initial damage dealt vs. an opposing Reflex check. If the attacker succeeds, the target starts bleeding. If the defender succeeds, he managed skirt the worst of it and doesn't start bleeding.

If you're bleeding, you can do a few things:

1. you can spend your turn pretty much doing nothing, in which case you take one point of bleeding damage and are entitled to a Fortitude check (vs. original start-bleeding roll) to see if your system can successfully clot or stymie your blood flow.

2. you can continue strenuous activity (moving more than five feet in a round, attacking, defending), in which case you take 1d4 damage,

3. you can actively try to stop the blood flow (taking 1d2 damage and 1d6 subdual due to fiddleing around with an open wound). If you choose to do this, roll a Heal check at -2 for performing on yourself vs. a DC of 5 + initial damage. This provokes an attack of opportunity, but keeps you from bleeding anymore from that wound. This is a full round action. If another character is administering the care, you don't take the d2 damage, and the d6 is reduced to d4 subdual, and the medic in question doesn't suffer the -2 penalty.

There may be a variant that involves bullets. In this case, I would suggest that the check be a fort save against a DC 10.

So, for example, Jack and Thug 1 are facing off. Thug 1's got his knife, and Jack's got a pistol. Somehow, 1 has managed to get within pokin' distance of J. 1 takes a swipe with his knife, scoring a hit and 5 damage. The thug rolls a 17 on his Bleed check, modified to a 22. Unfortunately for J, he rolls a measly three and starts bleeding.

On his turn, J takes a five foot step back and take a potshot at 1, scoring a glancing blow off of 1's shoulder, dealing 7 damage. 1 immediately rolls a fort. save, DC 10, or starts bleeding. He gets a 9, and begins to bleed. At the end of his turn, J takes 1d4 damage.

1 now takes a five-foot step behind a dumpster for cover. That's non-strenuous activity, so 1 takes a point of damage and gets to roll his save. Since he was wounded due to a gunshot, he rolls fort. vs. DC 10. He gets an 11, and stops bleeding.

Jack grabs his roll of EZ Gauze from his medkit and begins trying to stop the bleeding. He immadiately takes 1d2 damage and 1d6 subdual for the attempt, then rolls a Heal check at -2 vs. a DC of 10 (five base plus five for initial damage). He gets a 12, and stops bleeding. He then takes his five foot step and gets ready to shoot that jackass what poked 'im.

So, whatcha think?
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  #82  
Unread 16th of November, 2005, 18:55
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I would like to point out that simply a constant flow of 1 point of damage per round is extremely powerful. Seriously, I experimented with wounding weapons in their 3.0 verison, and they were, mechanicly, both horribly effective (against a giant, even!) and a pain to work out, as you had to keep track of how many wounds were bleeding at any given time, and this is without rolling dice, it was simply 1 damage, not a die of damage.
Also, I should point out that a bad gunshot would will bleed terribly as well.
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Unread 16th of November, 2005, 19:03
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Yes, but the point here was to balance the knife to the gun, and it is quite a bit easier for your systems to handled a gunshot wound as compared to a knife slash.

Besides, I've built in multiple ways to stop bleeding, including one that just involves doing nothing, and if you're lucky it's entirely possible to not suffer from bleeding at all.
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  #84  
Unread 16th of November, 2005, 19:31
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“ Originally Posted by The Hive Custodian Katana does 2d6 instead of the 1d10 it does in D&D.
Three-section staff does 1d10/1d10 instead of 1d8/1d8 for a comparable D&D weapon.
”
1. The Katana gains two points of potential damage, but bear in mind that in D&D it was automatically a masterwork weapon. It is not a masterwork weapon in Modern D20. rather, it's just the replacement for the Greatsword.

2. there's really no comparable weapon to the three-section staff, though I'm sure you're thinking of the dire flail. The staff really is strong enough in reality of its own accord to be a d10/d10 weapon, and a dire flail is not. A three-section staff is also really, REALLY hard to use properly.
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  #85  
Unread 16th of November, 2005, 20:40
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1d4 automatic damage a round is a lot. Especially considering that in d20 systems, characters tend to get hit several times before they stop fighting. 1d4 damage per round may not seem like a lot to some, but 3d4 damage a round is a lot for any character. And, let's face it, the knife and the gun are not balanced foes. There's a reason knives are only used as last resort weapons these days- guns are better! If you jump out from around the corner and stab somone in the back, they stand a good chance of living. You jump out from around the corner and shoot someone, they don't stand such a good chance of living.
As for the ways to avoid/stop the bleeding, they are balance-wise somewhat rediculous. On one hand, you have a fortitude save at a DC that's normally going to be unpassable by non-fightery-types. On the other hand, you have an option that will deal damage (I don't get how that works exactly. Maybe 1d4 subdual with a chance to tough it becuase it hurts, but that's have to be a really nasty wound for putting some cotton and gause on it to deal damage to the character). Let's compare these to the wounding weapon enchantment from D&D 3.0, an enchantment deemed worth a +1 of the weapon: the hit opponent takes 1 damage per round (stacking). Can be stopped with a DC 15 heal check or any hit-point restoring spell. This is for magicly enhanced bleeding. Mundane "gun' cut'cha' boy!" bleeding shouldn't be harder (and more lethal) to stop and deal more damage. And that wounding enchantment was lethal. I'm telling you, the stock character I built and outfitted with this wounding stuff was inflicing insane amounts of harm on its opponents just with the bleed damage.
Another point, requiring the lowering of your defence to avoid additional damage is more or less saying "in combat you take this extra damage" because if you stop defending yourself, switchknife boy can just walk over and coup de grace you.
Lastly (for now), you're dealing with d20. At some point, realism is sacrificed for simplicity and game ballance. Y'know, like having it be worth all that extra money to buy a baretta instead of a box-cutter.
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Unread 17th of November, 2005, 02:03
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“ Originally Posted by Daedalus 1. The Katana gains two points of potential damage, but bear in mind that in D&D it was automatically a masterwork weapon. It is not a masterwork weapon in Modern D20. rather, it's just the replacement for the Greatsword. ”
But a greatsword cannot be used one-handed even with Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Besides, if they wanted it to be masterwork they could have easily made it so, and you still can make it masterwork.

“ Originally Posted by Daedalus A three-section staff is also really, REALLY hard to use properly. ”
As is a dire flail. In fact, I would think that they bent reality to acommodate the dire flail; it doesn't really seem like a feasible weapon to me.

“ Originally Posted by Doomsmile Lastly (for now), you're dealing with d20. At some point, realism is sacrificed for simplicity and game ballance. Y'know, like having it be worth all that extra money to buy a baretta instead of a box-cutter. ”
This is really the point of the argument. We have to combine game balance, simplicity, and realism. Are the wound and coup de grace rules more realistic? Yes. But I don't think they're worth the price in game balance and simplicity. d20 wasn't really designed to simulate reality. Some concessions were made in the name of simplicity; that's why characters take turns, why there's no body location hit tables, and so forth. Perhaps more importantly, even if simplicity were not a factor, d20 isn't meant to simulate normal people, as evidenced by high level characters' ridiculous statistics.
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  #87  
Unread 17th of November, 2005, 02:31
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I have a thought. For those who like simplicity, there's a feat in Complete Warrior that's a lot like this: Arterial Strike. Basically, drop 1d6 sneak attack for bleedage, 1 per round. Perhaps we could use the drawback = bleedage model? Say, a knife wielder can take a -2 penalty to hit when aiming for an artery or other high-damage area to bleed the opponent instead of simply trying to get a cut in wherever possible, which would result in the base damage?
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Unread 17th of November, 2005, 05:22
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“ If you jump out from around the corner and stab somone in the back, they stand a good chance of living. You jump out from around the corner and shoot someone, they don't stand such a good chance of living. ”
Not true. If you jump out of the shadows and stab someone in the back, it's likely that they just lost a good number of nerve cells in their spine. Which means they may not be able to move and are bleeding heavily. If you're smart and you stab them in the lower back (kidneys) they are as good as dead.

If you lean out a window with a gun, manage to actually hit your target, chances are good that if it isn't a shot to the head, neck, lucky chest shot, or a shot to the kidneys as detailed above, you're target is going to be fine if he can stumble to a hospital or even someone who knows basic first aid. But you can keep shooting him! Yes, but that's beyond the scope of this rules revision. I just want melee weapons to do a bit more damage and both melee and ranged weapons have a way of flat out owning someone. I don't care about the ranged vs. melee argument. I know modern ranged weapons are far better then melee.

Anyway, enough arguing. Guns are better than knives, yes, but not at the degree shown in the d20 modern book. So here's what I suggest.
  • Pump all melee weapons up by one die step.
  • Revise the rough draft of the coup de grace rules I have below and integrate them:
Revised Coup de Grace: If an attacking character can move into a targets square (requiring something of a touch attack or something akin to that), and is armed with a weapon capable of doing lethal damage, the attacking character may hold the weapon to a vital area of the target and keep the target pinned. The target must make a will save at a DC of 10 + (half?) the weapons max unmodified damage to attempt to break free of this hold. To break free, the target must make a Reflex save with a DC of 10 + Attackers Dex Modifier. If the target fails this save, the attacker can reflexively attack the target, scoring a critical hit that does max damage. The target must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 5 + Damage Taken to remain standing and aware. If the fortitude save fails, the target is knocked unconcious and begins bleeding as if he had sustained negative hitpoint damage.






Okay, that is way too wordy and there are some mechanics that need to be worked out, so I'm going to leave it to THC to revise and post here when it's finished. Then we can vote on it and see where it goes.

Last edited by stealthbanana; 17th of November, 2005 at 05:25.
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Unread 17th of November, 2005, 06:03
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“ Originally Posted by stealthbanana Not true. If you jump out of the shadows and stab someone in the back, it's likely that they just lost a good number of nerve cells in their spine. Which means they may not be able to move and are bleeding heavily. If you're smart and you stab them in the lower back (kidneys) they are as good as dead. ”
By you, I meant I. Maybe you know how to strike at kidney while moving, or the sectrets of rib penetration, but I don't, and I doubt most people do.

“ Originally Posted by stealthbanana If you lean out a window with a gun, manage to actually hit your target, chances are good that if it isn't a shot to the head, neck, lucky chest shot, or a shot to the kidneys as detailed above, you're target is going to be fine if he can stumble to a hospital or even someone who knows basic first aid. ”
First off, I was assuming similar ranges. Secondly, I've been watching more than a few episodes of Shoot-out lately, and, while someone might be able to survive a badly placed gunshot wound, same aplies to a knife wound. You still bleed when you get impaled by a bulled, just as much as if you were cut, practicly.

“ Originally Posted by stealthbanana Guns are better than knives, yes, but not at the degree shown in the d20 modern book. So here's what I suggest.
  • Pump all melee weapons up by one die step.
”
  • If you want to fiddle with die steps, a better way would probably be to put guns down a step to keep this in line with just about every other d20 variant, where a longsword does 1d8 and a knife does 1d4.
    “ Originally Posted by stealthbanana
  • Revise the rough draft of the coup de grace rules I have below and integrate them:
  • ”
“ Originally Posted by stealthbanana
Revised Coup de Grace: If an attacking character can move into a targets square (requiring something of a touch attack or something akin to that), and is armed with a weapon capable of doing lethal damage, the attacking character may hold the weapon to a vital area of the target and keep the target pinned. The target must make a will save at a DC of 10 + (half?) the weapons max unmodified damage to attempt to break free of this hold. To break free, the target must make a Reflex save with a DC of 10 + Attackers Dex Modifier. If the target fails this save, the attacker can reflexively attack the target, scoring a critical hit that does max damage. The target must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 5 + Damage Taken to remain standing and aware. If the fortitude save fails, the target is knocked unconcious and begins bleeding as if he had sustained negative hitpoint damage.


”
Two words: Heck no. Not only does this bypass several mechanics, but it's way too lethal. I don't know about you, but I don't want my character to be hit with a coup de grace just for walking past the wrong door. Additionally, if you want holding etc, I would suggest grapple rules. I wouldn't be opposed to a knife-to-the-throat type of grapple move, but this would only be a) if you've initiated the grapple this round, b) you're in the grapple, c) by making a grapple check with a -4 penalty (decreased by one for each point of crit range on the weapon), you can line the weapon up with a critical area, thus causing an automatic critical hit. I'd also say the target needs to be unaware.
Still, I'd just as soon leave the availability of the coup de grace alone, but maybe include the knock-out rules (it knocks out instead of killing the opponent if the weapon normally deals subdual damage).

Lastly, how'd you get formatting into here? I've been trying for over a year to get spaces on the left!

Now that I'm aware of this arterial strike deel (thogh I'm not sure of the details) it might be appropriate for knife bleedage, since you'd need to undertake at least a modicum of training to figure out how to knife someone properly. Most people just know that the pointy end goes into the fleshy bit.
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Unread 17th of November, 2005, 06:21
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First:
“ Originally Posted by Doomsmile Lastly, how'd you get formatting into here? I've been trying for over a year to get spaces on the left! ”
Use this button: .
1...
2...
3...
4...
5...
6...
7...
8...
Whee!
Secondly, I've drafted some Melee Weapon Design Rules. Let's take the debate over to that topic, which I shall be posting shortly.

EDIT: MELEE WEAPON DEBATES NOW GO HERE.
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Unread 17th of November, 2005, 09:05
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Oh.... Gee, I feel silly now...
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Unread 7th of December, 2005, 14:32
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Design rules have been updated.
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Unread 19th of December, 2005, 20:41
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Thanks, THC. You should have a little [Assistant GM] tag next to your [GM] Tag. Honestly.
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