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Linklegacy77 6th of December, 2007 19:33

[CRC] Challenge Rating... Challenge? Discussion
Feel free to discuss the challenge here.

Ask any questions you have here, and feel free to voice any concerns.

Do not hesitate if you have any questions regarding the legality of another character, merely post here. I'll trust that nobody will be a jerk about this, and that everyone will treat such an inquisition as a genuine concern and not an attack. We're all (well, mostly) mature gamers here.

Tashalar 6th of December, 2007 21:53

Yeeeeha! Here we come... the band of 20th level heroes to bring down whatever foes our belovèd DM confronts us with. :)

A suggestion concerning the posting of character sheets:
Obviously those that post last can benefit from the information supplied by those that post first. This would mean that it is tactically wise to wait just before the due date to post your character.
I don't like this scenario as this means that many will simply wait and some will have an advantage over others. My suggestion would be to set two due dates. The first is for everyone who wants to participate to post their character. Then you could give everyone a chance to look at everyone elses characters and change minor things should they see something interesting.

Normally this should be a challenge where everyone enters a character 'all by themselves' - but this would give everyone the same chance while allowing some copying. Not an ideal way but a better way than giving some an advantage over others imo. Furthermore, I think most will agree that studying posted sheets and adapting one's own is a valid tactic while adjusting it when it's posted (concerning my proposed procedure) to copy tricks of another is frowned upon and will not be done.

Other than that, it would be helpful to update the rules according to some rulings you made in answer to questions:

Originally Posted by Biff
E. Since many creatures, larger dragons with poor or clumsy maneuverability who have to maintain a forward speed in particular, may need to be entering and leaving the arena, I'd say to only count it if the foe both begins and ends that round with at least half its space outside the arena.


No custom-made items other than potions, wands and spells created with the rules described in the DMG.
This line should include staves (restricting 'custom-made' to spells).

Banned: Gate (along with all items which cast it), Mnemonic Enhancer, Leadership feat, extra-dimensional travel (etherealness, plane shift, teleport)
Teleport is now allowed - even though extra-dimensional travel longer than one round still means a loss for leaving the arena.


The arena will be a square area of the dimensions 100’x100’ and flight is allowed up to a height of 500’.
I think you ruled that the arena goes as deep as 100' below ground.
In case of an underground setting you ruled that the ceiling is still 500' high.
I didn't find the ruling you made on how an underwater setting works. I think you said the characters would start floating on the surface?

Okay, that's all I found except what I asked/suggested in this post.

Linklegacy77 7th of December, 2007 03:16

Actually, I think you should just look at the rules in the other thread, it's all there. Somehow, I doubt it's a good idea to replicate that much text.

Tashalar 7th of December, 2007 03:30

Most things will only mean an increase of a few words or a line of text. I purposely left out all the rulings you made on spells such as Resilient Sphere and others.

I do think that all information about the arena should be in the rules though.

Additionally, I'm rather curious as to what you think about my suggestion and on the matter of information in battle and the knowledge checks which I linked. There's no hurry concerning either of these though. :)

Lord Twig 7th of December, 2007 07:49

I personally think that it should be fine to post a character and then make any changes you wanted to that character up until the time that sign ups close. After that there should be a period of time where everyone can check the characters for errors.

I don't think it would be fair to lock a player into a certain character just because he posted it first. Regardless I will probably go ahead an post my character later today, after I have given it one more check for accuracy.

As for the rules listed at the top of the sign up thread, they should at least be accurate, but by no means need to be complete.

So maybe remove Teleport as a banned spell, change "spells" to "staves" in the custom item rule and that should be about it. Of course if you want to add more, that would be welcome also. :)

Lord Twig 7th of December, 2007 08:47

Quick question: The rules say one-use magic items cost double (including ammunition). What about non-magic ammunition, do they cost double as well?

Tashalar 7th of December, 2007 08:49

I think it's meant as one-use items... but seriously - what do you have in mind?
1 gp per 20 arrows vs. 2 gp per 20 arrows? Doesn't seem to make a lot of difference if you ask me... but maybe you are just trying to do it correctly on the first try! :)


After that there should be a period of time where everyone can check the characters for errors.
Agreed - but my suggestion is that everyone may adjust their characters slightly before that step again as well.

Lord Twig 7th of December, 2007 09:06

Arrows are cheap. Adamant arrows are a bit more expensive. ;)

Linklegacy77 7th of December, 2007 10:58

Ammunition is a one-use item. Each arrow is separate, so yes, it costs double.

Doombot 7th of December, 2007 12:38

What about magic ability-enhancing tomes? Technically they're one use, since only one person can use them, but they're effectively a permanent item: they cause a permanent increase to stats.

It's the Helm of Opposite Alignment argument -- you can only use it once, but I wouldn't consider a single-use item, like scrolls and potions, because it's entirely different in nature.

Lord Twig 7th of December, 2007 13:53

I'm pretty sure the manuals and tomes are regular price. They are already very expensive!

Linklegacy77 7th of December, 2007 14:12

Yes, those such tomes are regular price.

Lord Twig 7th of December, 2007 14:15

We have our two Celestials up now. :cool:

Doombot: I'm pretty sure the bonuses to your AC and saves from your protection form evil won't stack with your ring and cloak.

Also, Outsiders do not have proficiency with armor or shields, so you would have to subtract your Armor Check Penalty from your attack rolls and some other skills. :(

Doombot 7th of December, 2007 16:11

Booo! I was thinking all outsiders had proficiency with armor. I'll have to check and see what my ACP is; if it's small enough, I might just suck it up. If not, is it possible to get Bracers of Armor enchanted with these enchantments? I remember reading somewhere (Arms and Armor 3.0 splatbook I think) that you can get your bracers enchanted as though they were armor, and it went up to +13 total (a +8 set of bracers with up to +5 of enchantment, for example) as though they were a suit of armor. Is this still allowable, or do I need to tweak my character some more?

Lord Twig 7th of December, 2007 17:36

I don't think you can enchant bracers of armor, but you can use a mithral chain shirt. It has an armor check penalty of 0 and is only one less AC. That's what I did. ;)

If you keep what you have the mithral chain mail is -2 and your shield is another -1. If you make your shield mithral it will get rid of that.

Edit: I just checked and you can switch to a mithral breastplate for 50gp more and it would only have a -1 penalty with the same AC.

Lord Twig 7th of December, 2007 17:44

How are we doing HPs? I notice that Doombot and I came up with different numbers, but we should have the same. I used the RPGA standard of max HP at 1st then Max/2+1 for every additional die. So that would be 8+55+120=183.

Doombot did you use max first die plus average after that? So 8+49+120=177.

Tashalar 7th of December, 2007 18:39

I thought it was /2+1...

When looking over your sheets, I immediately wondered about the chain mail as well - but I did not know that outsiders have no proficiency with armor or shields...
Why not go for a mithril chain shirt and get gloves of Dex +4 and an ioun stone of strength +2 instead of the gauntlets? No idea, whether or not you have 20k to spare though, Doom.

Actually I don't think that you need a higher AC... but higher Dex is great for a higher initiative.. and touch AC isn't that good.


Seeing the power and effectiveness of the adventuring group’s items Celina decided she would not make the same mistakes twice.
My first thought when I read this was that she'd killed the adventurers to get the items for herself! :roll:

Lord Twig 7th of December, 2007 18:55


Originally Posted by Tashalar (Post 292767)
My first thought when I read this was that she'd killed the adventurers to get the items for herself! :roll:

Well you certainly are no Angel! ;)

Tashalar 7th of December, 2007 19:08

Oh noez! You have reveiled my true identity!!

... hm... actually I should roll up some kind of devil to contest your goody-goody types. I'd actually do that if a second character was allowed. :)

Tashalar 7th of December, 2007 21:05

I wanted to sit down and work... but posted characters are too much of a lure... and with the Charisma they have... how can I resist? :roll:

AC should be 45 (Dex bonus is +8) - and maybe add touch AC for easy reference

Cost for animated steel shield is only 16170 gp
Fortitude: +25 (+8 outsider + 10 Con +1 luck +1 competence +5 resistance)
Reflex: +19 (+8 +4 Dex +1 luck +1 comp +5 resis)
Will: +19
Where did you get the additional +4 from?

Lord Twig 7th of December, 2007 21:23


Originally Posted by Tashalar (Post 292780)
AC should be 45 (Dex bonus is +8) - and maybe add touch AC for easy reference.

Mithral Chain Shirt limits me to +6 Dex. Also I swapped out the AC Ioun stone for an upgraded version, so no more insight bonus to AC. So that makes it 42, or 46 against Evil or when I get my Holy Aura up. Which I think is pretty respectable.

I will add touch and flat-footed, but with Uncanny Dodge the latter shouldn't happen too often. ;)

Doombot 8th of December, 2007 01:11

LT: Yes, I did average HP. I don't recall reading how we're going to do them, so I figured that would be it; I'll change that to match yours.

Tash: Mis-added my base racial saves when figuring them.

All criticisms duly noted: thanks you two. I'll have to change that sometime this afternoon. Poke me again if I seem to totally neglect my sheet.

Lord Twig 8th of December, 2007 07:36

Magik: Couple things I noticed.

Kul's Str should only (only?) be 46. :O

Half Dragon increases your HD by one step, so your d8 would turn into a d10, not a d12. So HPs should be 10+30 (HD) +7 (Barb) +24 (Fighter) +5 (Ranger) +120 (Con)=196

Also, your Animated Heavy Steel Shield will give a -2 penalty to your attacks and all Str and Dex skills because you are not proficient with it. You can fix that by making it Mithral. ;)

Lord Twig 8th of December, 2007 07:41

I noticed we have a couple animated shields in use. I believe it was ruled that energy weapons would start each round deactivated and have to be activated with a standard action each time. So I would assume the same would go for animated shields.

The question is, what happens to an animated shield when you defeat your challenge? Does it get teleported back with you to your starting location and then drop to the ground? Or does a character have a chance to take it back in hand?

Tashalar 8th of December, 2007 07:49

Yes, I specifically asked about animated shields and they 'switched off' after the round. What I would hope would happen is that the shield appears right next to the character at the starting position and can be grabbed... ie: it is held when the next round starts.

You then need either a move action to ready it or a standard action to animate it. Not great, but fine I guess.

Why would it give an attack penalty for the troll though, LT? The troll has levels in fighter so he should be fine using a shield imo.

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