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BigRedRod
8th of June, 2008, 20:50
Maps are fairly important to many of our PBPs, and with D&D 4th Edition being even more reliant on accurate depiction of combat scenes I think it's time we all talked about the best way of creating maps for our games.

Types of Maps
There are two general types of map which we use. The first being a tactical or combat map. These are used for round by round tracking of combat with elements moving about. The second is the overland or world map, these tend to be static as the layout of a city rarely changes on a short timescale and two cities tend to stay a fixed distance apart.

99 Problems
In face to face games tactical maps are quite often just marker pen scribbles on some kind of white board or battlemap. You draw the outlines and then set out your miniatures (whatever they might be). Bam. Job done. If you use modules it is even easier as they often come with maps that you can just lie on a table and use.

In this scary digital world though we don't have white boards, pens or miniatures and what should be a fairly trivial problem becomes a bit of a pain. All too often we, as DMs, promise maps to our players but just find ourselves unable to deliver. So I thought I'd throw out my experiences of map making and hopefully attract some of the more skilled members to chip in.

Resources
There are two specialist programs for making game maps which I've come across:
Campaign Cartographer (http://www.profantasy.com/) and Dundjinni (http://www.dundjinni.com/)

I've limited experience with both of those despite having bought a copy of CC3 and played with the Dundjinni trial. Possibly due to a lack of patience on my part neither program seemed very useful. Good maps can be made but they rely on either having an archive of art to draw upon or the ability to create this art. Without these, maps tend to look quite crude.

There's also a java map design applet which allows you to sketch very basic maps and save them as a code which you can update round by round. I can't find a link to a mirror (as the site it came from now seems broken) which is rather annoying. This is a perfectly serviceable solution and for a good few years it was what I used. The problem is that it's very limited and quite often players seemed too lazy to bother loading maps.
Edit: itches found a working mirror (http://pages.infinit.net/pdclarke/mmee/index.html).

And this (http://www.stonesword.com/dungeonmaker.php), which is good but very limited in the tiles and icons, which is a shame.

I'm lucky in that I've got a Photoshop license from my place of work and although I'm no artist I've found that it is much easier to simply use such a program to create maps than to mess around with programs specifically created for the purpose (Which is counter intuitive).

In having a search around for how others solve this tricky problem I stumbled upon another resource which I quite like but I feel it would cause some of the site's members to scream out in impotent rage. Using a 32x32 pixel grid you can essentially use snes RPG tiles to craft custom maps, the sprites are also very (http://www.videogamesprites.net/Links/) readily (http://charas-project.net/resources.php) available.

Make Maps The BigRedRod Way
I won't lie to you, I essentially cheat at map making.

Step 1: Find a source map. Good general maps with grids and the like can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/mw). It's not an unlimited selection and some are only available in frustratingly low resolution, but it is the best I've found. The key problem is that one of my games so far hasn't included a single wilderness or dungeon encounter, instead it's all been fights within a city. Decent maps of a densely packed fantasy city are rather rare.

From the "Castle Ravenloft and Complete Mage" maps though we find the map named "The Village of Barovia" comes the closest to a city map of sufficient quality that it can be blown up and used with a 5ft square grid upon it (as required for combat in D&D). Here's the original map:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/PASG/Village40ft.jpg

Step 2: Make the source map a bit more suitable. What this means for our chosen map is cropping an area of it to make it look more like a city than a village, resizing the cropped section and adding a 5ft grid. After resizing it ended up looking rather ugly (as resizing does with complicated images) so I committed the cardinal sin of using a photoshop filter in an effort to make it look more like a painting. A better, but more skill reliant and time consuming, solution would be to trace the cropped source image in Artrage, I could have also added a few houses in the process here to up the population density.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/PASG/BallacheJunctioncopy.jpg
There is much more that can be done here. More recent maps have seen me carefully cutting out elements to recolour or clone.


Step 3: Add the counters. So now we've got a map of a useful size with a grid. We're nearly done. Now it's just a case of adding some counters to represent the players and the monsters. There are lots of token packs available so it's possible to use these for a more graphical approach, I just settled for white circles trimmed with coloured edges (blue for players, red for badguys, green for allies and grey for unknown). This is fairly trivial in photoshop, you just draw two circles, one white and one slightly larger coloured one. Line them up. Add a label (I use single letters for the most part) and then merge the layers to yield a single counter. Keeping each counter on its own layer is essential as it lets you move them about.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/PASG/BallacheJunctionR1.jpg

Step 4: Every time you post in combat you update the map. This usually just involves shifting counters about. Now as I was still learning at this point I was a bit inconsistent with how I represented things. There were a few complications in this combat:
1) My players took shelter inside the houses
2) The badguys were standing atop the houses
3) One of my players threw a feather token and spawned an oak tree

My end solutions were as follows:
1&2) Originally I made the tokens smaller, but I then settled for using black dots (one for the ground floor, two for the first and zero for actually being stood on the roof)
3) This was unexpected and quite good fun. I ended up digging through the map archive again to find a tree stump and cutting it out (thanks to the magic wand tool in photoshop). I then found image showing trees with foliage and cut that out. The tree trunk was resized and placed on the map with the foliage on top and made slightly transparent. It worked quite well.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/PASG/BallacheJunctionR3-2.jpg

And that is how I make my maps despite a lack of artistic skill.


I encourage other people to show off their maps and to do their best to describe any clever tricks they've stumbled across.

Scythe
9th of June, 2008, 00:27
I started using AutoRealm a while ago... It's free program, and it's not that bad. I've always had problems with maps, and I never got the hand of map making programs...

hedgeknight
9th of June, 2008, 05:44
I've tried AutoRealm on two separate occasions and just can't seem to get the hang of it. I really want to use it but it takes me forever to make even the simplest of maps. :(
-g-

LuneMoonshadow
9th of June, 2008, 10:36
I currently use three different techniques, two of which are good for world maps and one which is used for local maps.

The first world map technique, which I used for my Factions world map (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6754), is done in paint. That surprises most for whatever reason, but making the map is actually quite simple (but time consuming). I won't go into lots of detail but basically I just draw a map on paper by hand, scan it, then retrace the lines in paint with a thick brush. After that I add the desired colors for the land and sea, then add lakes. For my mountains, hills, and forests I have a separate file open that has about 4-8 different versions of each. If you notice in the example I only have a couple of types of hills on the map, and I just paste them in trying to alternate where I 'stamp' them down. It gives it a very diverse look and is still pretty simple. Rivers are drawn in by hand and locations are obviously easy to do.

My second method made my Gray Reaper map (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9232), which I have to say looks okay but I need to redo it since it has horrible proportions and the look of the map features needs to be redone. This was my first attempt at this method, however, so that is my excuse. I actually used a tutorial to make it found at an amazing cartographer forum (http://forum.cartographersguild.com/).


Lastly are my local maps, which I use for combats and such. I use GIMP almost primarily, though I do have Dindjinni and I use it when I need access to their proprietary tiles. Otherwise I simply import the tiles I download for Dundjinni straight into GIMP and manipulate and place them there. It is not only easier, but it lags less and gives me more options. I use this method for floor tiles, doodads, and I even make tokens in GIMP. I don't really have one set method for doing this, because it all depends on what kind of battle it is (location and scale). I typically move from largest to smallest, though. Floor, buildings/walls, large fixtures, doodads, then finally lighting/shadow effects. The lighting in my maps is done using multiple layers, which is actually quite simple.

I've linked a couple example of my maps and if anyone wants to know how to do something I'd be glad to share my method.

Examples:
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/8058/roadr1rz3.th.png (http://img398.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roadr1rz3.png) http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3050/outdoorsr4ve0.th.png (http://img398.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outdoorsr4ve0.png)
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1492/creekbattlerd6.th.png (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=creekbattlerd6.png) http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/7650/templefinalbf9.th.png (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=templefinalbf9.png)

Mercutio
9th of June, 2008, 11:29
I used Dundjinni almost exclusively. I will use GIMP for advanced lighting effects or other such image editing issues, but for the most part I can create good maps (at least, I think they're good) fairly easily.

Before I had DJ though I used to use Powerpoint and methods similar to what BRR said he did. I even wrote an article posted at Dragon Avenue about it.

hedgeknight
9th of June, 2008, 14:14
Okay, what the heck is GIMP?
And don't even bring up that freak in Pulp Fiction! Damnation! That twisted fuck just gives me the creeps. :paranoid:
-g-

Scythe
9th of June, 2008, 14:35
People of Dundjinni! Is it possible to make decent maps with only the Demo?

LuneMoonshadow
9th of June, 2008, 14:36
Okay, what the heck is GIMP?
And don't even bring up that freak in Pulp Fiction! Damnation! That twisted fuck just gives me the creeps. :paranoid:
-g-

It's an image manipulation program. It isn't quite as powerful as photoshop but it is free. Lots of things that photoshop does out of the box that GIMP seems to be lacking can actually be done, it just takes round-about ways to get it done.

In short, if you're not an expert graphics designer then GIMP (http://www.gimp.org/) will work perfectly for whatever you need it to do.

People of Dundjinni! Is it possible to make decent maps with only the Demo?
I don't think you can save your maps in the demo. You could always just take a screenshot and edit it in another program though. More work but it is free. I say just use the files designed for Dundjinni in an image program and don't bother with Dundjinni at all unless you absolutely need those tile sets for some reason.

Benicus
9th of June, 2008, 15:02
Open Source Photoshop.

LeadPal
10th of June, 2008, 09:43
Hmm.

I mostly use AutoRealm; I can create serviceable but ugly maps in a flash, and simplistic but decent maps with only a little more time. Much as I've wanted to use GIMP, I've never really had anything to work with to begin with (I can't find a place that sells any map software, and I don't care to buy any).

So far, the best solution for me has been to not make maps at all, and play combat fast and loose. I can't imagine this working in 4e, so I probably won't be DMing it online.

BigRedRod
11th of June, 2008, 19:33
In the more off-piste approach it seems that lots of DMs over on Dndonlinegames use excel for their maps while I'm now wondering if sketchup might be an exciting approach.

Mercutio
11th of June, 2008, 23:27
I can't imagine this working in 4e, so I probably won't be DMing it online.Out of curiosity, why do you feel that 4E is MORE reliant on maps than 3E? I would think the simplification of blasts and bursts and movements in squares with diagonals counting the same as straight moves would make it even easier to go mapless.

Sketchup is cool, and would make for decent maps, especially with actual accurate distance measurements.

LeadPal
12th of June, 2008, 04:30
For area spells, I rule that aim is approximate; no counting spaces to hit exactly the largest number of orcs and miss your party by 5 feet. However, I'm seeing an intense amount of tactical movement in 4e; less reason to stand still without full-round actions, and lots of abilities that cause enemies to shift. 3e is more static in that regard, so it's more reasonable to just wing it.

BigRedRod
12th of June, 2008, 06:34
On yet another set of boards I'm hearing lots of love for maptool (http://rptools.net/doku.php?id=maptool:intro). I admit it looks excellent, although it seems to be more for a real time game, it looks pretty much like what I wanted rodmap (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2850) to be.

Benicus
12th of June, 2008, 06:49
Maptools looks pretty sweet. I'll have to try it out :).

EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember why I never used this. My router (Actiontec, ISP: Qwest) doesn't allow for UPNP so I'm hosed if I want to host the game (which I do). :cry:

Mercutio
12th of June, 2008, 11:45
Maptool was actually more complex than Dundjinni, at least to me. I will say that Battlegrounds appears to be an awesome Virtual Tabletop. If (and probably when) D&D Game Table fails, I'll purchase the GM license for Battlegrounds. I'm using the trial version now for RHoD and it is making my life loads simpler as far as combat management.

Shadow_Link
15th of September, 2008, 10:50
Are there any good one that run for Linux? Maptool says that it does, but for the life of me, I can't get it to work.

Benicus
15th of September, 2008, 11:01
Use WINE to emulate windows and run dundjinni (or you could use virtualbox and do that too, it's what I intend on doing if I can ever get a game to actually run again...)

Or use gimp/inkscape or other than that all the map tools I know of are not out of the box Linux compatible (sp?) so you'll have to do some finangling to get the other programs to work.

What distro you working with?

Shadow_Link
15th of September, 2008, 11:28
1)I'm using Ubuntu
2)WINE is buggy as fuck
3)Beyond WINE being itself, it seems to be working for now
But, I have a back up plan. It's called Star Craft Map Editor!

Benicus
15th of September, 2008, 12:11
Hardy Heron right?

What are you emulating with WINE?

Shadow_Link
15th of September, 2008, 12:28
Yeah. I was attempting to use dundjinni, but since WINE is a buggy piece of $hite, it didn't work well

Benicus
15th of September, 2008, 12:56
'k

I'll try installing and working with my copy of Dundjinni and post back if I find anything else.

Benicus
16th of September, 2008, 07:51
Hey this has nothing to do with the Linux problem buuuut:

I found a neat new toy! It's a city map generator that is kinda swanky.

http://www.drachenzahn.de/city_map_generator/instruction.html

Candleman
16th of September, 2008, 13:43
I tested that out, and it works very well. It's a little complicated, what with all the bars and sliders and such, but it's also easy to make a simple map if you don't fiddle too much.

BigRedRod
16th of September, 2008, 16:45
Hey this has nothing to do with the Linux problem buuuut:

I found a neat new toy! It's a city map generator that is kinda swanky.

http://www.drachenzahn.de/city_map_generator/instruction.html
It's a shame that such things don't allow tactical scale maps to be created as I could really use combat city maps on a regular basis.

Shadow_Link
19th of September, 2008, 08:06
Ok, running on XP, I got the city maker running(and it's fucking awesome!) along with Maptool and Dundjinni. Unfortunately, I could not figure out for the life of me how to get Maptool to work, and Dundjinni, in my humble opinion, seems like paint with "grass" as a color. So, as of now, I'm am very heavily considering using a combination of the City Map thing and Star Craft map editor for city work and outside world mapping, respectively.

EDIT: there is a chance that I am just a dumb $hite and that Maptool and Dundjinni are great and I'm too dumb to use them, but I did try to use them

Mercutio
19th of September, 2008, 09:55
You need to look at some of the maps made in Dundjinni.

For instance, here is one that I made.

http://www.geocities.com/jendarl01/coastal_storm.jpg

Benicus
19th of September, 2008, 11:04
Yeah, dundjinni is awesome.

Shadow_Link
19th of September, 2008, 12:02
that's cool, but I have no idea how to use it properly, therefor making it useless for me.

Mercutio
20th of September, 2008, 00:15
I just wanted to make sure you understood that it isn't a glorified paint program.

Bad Luck Charm
20th of September, 2008, 04:39
And what's wrong with paint programs? I can do some pretty cool maps in Photoshop, which is basically MS paint on acid :)

LeadPal
25th of September, 2008, 11:08
For instance, here is one that I made.Good gravy that is a sexy map.

Mercutio
25th of September, 2008, 22:51
Thanks. Took quite a lot of time to find the right textures and objects.

LeadPal
26th of September, 2008, 15:07
I can only imagine. I'm putting some serious thought into ordering the software, just from that map. I'm not entirely sure I'd even use it in a game--cool maps are their own reward.

BigRedRod
8th of September, 2010, 21:37
Mapping remains an issue close to my heart. Given that my patience for searching for suitable source material is ever shorter, and that, far more importantly it actually limits the opportunity to make combat exciting (most of these maps aren't especially dynamic), I've started to follow a more abstract route using a single program.

Here's an example from an encounter my players seem to be avoiding
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/PASG/0-Pre.png
It is much more like what you'd end up with given a whiteboard, which I quite like. The limited colour scheme is actually a function of the setting (the world lacks colour outside of the red foliage on the trees)

And the important thing is that it's done in Inkscape, so it is entirely vector based. Allowing for essentially unlimited interaction, so the combat can reshape the map. That, and it is fast to set up compared to the usual hunt & conversion approach.

Really, I should use some proper tokens rather than labels. Although, maybe not.

Gralhruk
8th of September, 2010, 22:39
Inkscape, eh? How long did the whiteboard take? And yes, I like the fact that it's like a whiteboard.

BigRedRod
8th of September, 2010, 23:02
The longest part was drawing the grid, but that was because I spent a while trying to find an elegant solution rather than sticking a load of equally spaced lines onto a separate layer. Maybe in total it was half an hour? Although I was doing it in the background while working, so it was on and off.

Also, it's a crop of a much larger image. Just one I can't find at the moment.

Mercutio
9th of September, 2010, 02:55
I like the whiteboard effect. Nicely done. Looks like it was pretty quick. I don't know what value honest-to-goodness tokens would do you in Inkscape as they wouldn't scale the same way that a vector-based image will.

BigRedRod
21st of July, 2011, 21:10
My latest map made with Inkscape. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/PASG/Surprise.png

Tashalar
21st of July, 2011, 21:55
So how long did it take you to make this map? And how long does it take you to update an entire round with the actions of the creatures/PCs?


And yes, it's nice. :)

BigRedRod
21st of July, 2011, 22:14
I started on the map at about 10am and finished it at about 1pm, but I was just fiddling with it in the background while I was working and what not.

So maybe an hour in total? Each round takes less than five minutes to do the map for(turn the labels layer off, move the pieces, crop, upload). Unless something major happens I suppose (so I'd have to change the terrain).

Linklegacy77
22nd of July, 2011, 14:53
I've taken to drawing reasonable maps by hand in 15-20 minutes on graph paper and then just scanning them. They aren't great quality, and my artistic ability sucks, but it's easier for me than messing around with some of these programs. I then just copy paste the sprites onto it.

Gralhruk
22nd of July, 2011, 22:34
It's really quite a nice map. Did you ever find an elegant way to generate the grid?

BigRedRod
22nd of July, 2011, 23:06
Yes, you can do it by generating an array. So you draw a vertical line of length fixed pixels, copy it once, rotate it ninety degrees, make sure it shares an intercept with the other one.

This gives you an L-shape which you group to an object, then you use clone to make it repeat a load of times without any separation. Then you set this to the top layer and lock it so you don't accidentally screw about with it.

Edit: I possibly should have put the label layer above the grid layer.