[HEC] Challenge Discussion

[LuneMoonshadow]

This is your new thread to ask questions in (Entirely necessary? Maybe not.. but I'm OCD so I like to keep things organized). The rules are effectively solidified but any glaring errors will be fixed. This will also be the place for OOC comments as well as taunting. Can't have a good challenge without a bit of taunting.

Who will come out on top? Only time will tell.


I would also like to note that players are supposed to put all of their entries in a single post. No posting once for each character. Very few rules have changed since the last incarnation, but read them carefully anyway.

[Lune]

Do I get a cookie for the adamatine bodied warforged?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Yes, you do. One of those cookie cakes even that has "Special!" written on it but some kid licked part of it off. So it's more like "Spec~%l!" Link gets one too and not sure who else.

Oh, and another thing! If you use a race/feat/class/spell/whatever from one of the books please try to make a note of where you got it from. It will help me a lot when I'm looking through the sheets. If it's commonly known (Ninja, for example) then don't bother. But I definitely don't know races and feats very well.

I also ask that all the players look over each other's sheets. I will be doing it but I'm going to miss something, I know. With so many sheets using so many different sources it may get confusing. Since characters are only level 1 it might not be bad, though. But still look.

[Noocytx]

When will sign ups close? (You might have mentioned this already, sorry if you have.)

Also, do I get a cookie for spider climb (sorc/wiz spell // warlock invocation) at all?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Sure, you can have a cookie.

And I forgot to mention when sign-ups close, so thank you for bringing that up. I plan to close them September 2nd. That gives you guys a little more than a week to complete all of your character creation. Should be enough considering the characters are only level 1.

After that I will look over the characters and will start the challenge.

[Doomsmile]

An important question I forgot to ask... If the character is light-sensitive (such as Malinko, my kobold), is the fight assumed to be at dusk? That failing, in the shade? That failing, how much to sun glasses cost?

[LuneMoonshadow]

I hadn't thought about the environment this would take place in so without ruling either for you or against you, I'll rule that the light conditions will be randomly determined.

So you'd have a chance for it not affect you but it could come back to haunt you, I suppose. Not sure what a better solution would be, if there is one.

[Doomsmile]

Well, you could just say that the lighting conditions are neutral. For an outdoor environment, it could be considered "sunrise" or "evening;" times when it's not particularly bright or dark.

Alternatively, you could just say that drow, orks, and kobolds get to wear spiffy sun-glasses.

EDIT: By the way, what are the cats trained to kill? If, for example, a creature was summoned in front of them, would they attack the summoned creature, or arbitratily ignore it?

[Benicus]

Hey what about Flaws for the characters (thinks about jumping on the bandwagon)?

[LuneMoonshadow]

The cats are trained in general to fight whatever is put in front of them in the arena. Sort of like animal fighting today, I suppose.

No flaws.

[Icebird]

I'd agree with Doomsmile - just make it neutral lighting, so as not to penalize any of the unusual races who like darkness.

[Linklegacy77]

Any particular reason Incarnum is excluded?

Oh, and my d4 character is ready to compete.

[Doomsmile]

Because incarnum is stupidly easy to break. Oh, and that one power that mirrors the Immolation ability from Warcraft III. That might have something to do with it, too.

By the way...
The cats are trained in general to fight whatever is put in front of them in the arena. Sort of like animal fighting today, I suppose.
Warlocks can get Summon Swarm at will. Is that allowed?

[Lune]

There is a magic item that negates the light sensitivy of such races. I forget what it is called but I have a drow character that has them. They are definately outside of the range of this challenge though.

[Linklegacy77]

Uh, DS, Incarnum isn't stupidly easy to break. We had this discussion a while ago, and you said a friend of yours broke it. Everybody here said he must have cheated.

Besides, you can't have that ability at lvl 1 if I recall, and it wouldn't matter, because I believe it requries that the cat hits you before it works. All that would do is delay the matches until the amount of cats you fight are greater than the amount of you hit points you have.

[Doomsmile]

Cheater asside, every game I've played which included an incarnum-user made at least half of the table grumpy at incarnite, but here probably isn't the best place to discuss it.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I wasn't sure if "neutral" light existed so I went with random. Since neutral will work we'll go with that.

Warlocks can get Summon Swarm at will. Is that allowed?
I don't think the spell itself violates the spirit of the contest. It seems to be more powerful than abilities of other casters at the same level, but I won't disallow it.

[Doomsmile]

Dibs.

[Icebird]

I have two questions. Firstly, what's the starting gold for a wizard? I don't have my PHB right now.

Secondly, what about animal companions/familiars that can fly, such as hawks? I don't think they're violating the spirit - they're not powerful at 1st level, and they don't stop the character from being harmed. I'm in favor of allowing them, but I just wanted to check first.

[Linklegacy77]

Max starting gold for wizards is 120.

Warmages don't have a set starting gold, so I used the wizards starting gold for them, if that's okay.

My d6 character is done now as well.

All of my characters are going to be related in some way. So far, James and George are cousins.

[Icebird]

Well, my single entry is up. I'm not really even trying to win, even for the d4 bracket. I didn't even use anything beyond the SRD. :)

[Doomsmile]

Whose starting gold should I use for a warlock?

[Tashalar]

I entered without saying "hi" first. So... "Hi!" :)


I just had a look at the kobold fighter - neat choice, really. I was aiming for a character with AC 24 as well, but then instead chose another route - the reach combattant.

Tactic will be to pull back and hit those cats with AoOs when they try to get in range. As they don't have tumble, the little halfling should be swinging his chain around like hell. ;)

Now... I'll just have to see about getting her a little boost to AC. Although this might be hard. Since I didn't introduce myself before, I'll make up for that by looking over everyone's sheets.

[Tashalar]

Fulmen:
I don't know the race, might get to it later.

Link:

(I know they are still in creation)
James:
Climb should be +2 not +0
I only count 12 gp for the sling bullets, there is lots of money left?
I count 6 PPs not 8: 2 for elan, 2 for psionic talent, 2 for 1st level psion
You have one feat left to spend (the bonus psion one)
Energy Arc isn't in the SRD - could you tell us what it does (just curious)?

Sounds like a neat concept if energy arc does what I think it does. :)

George:
I'm not sure how you got those ability scores - can we lower some to raise others?
There's still too much open and I'm no expert on warmages, so I'll pass on this one.

Icebird:

Just out of curiousity - why Combat Reflexes?
24 skill points would mean 6 skills at max ranks, you only have 5 listed.
Knowledge arcana and Spellcraft should be +7
You should have money left... :)

Doomsmile:

Climb skill is -2
Nothing else. :)

[Fulmen]

Fulmen:
I don't know the race, might get to it later.


The race is out of Sandstorm. You can find it HERE (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf), page 31.

[Linklegacy77]

(I know they are still in creation)
James:
Climb should be +2 not +0
I only count 12 gp for the sling bullets, there is lots of money left?
I count 6 PPs not 8: 2 for elan, 2 for psionic talent, 2 for 1st level psion
You have one feat left to spend (the bonus psion one)
Energy Arc isn't in the SRD - could you tell us what it does (just curious)?


You're right about the bullets, I actually get to multiply the number of bullets I have by 10 again. I don't think I'm going to run out.

8 power points: 2 psion, 2 from high int, 2 from psionic talent, 2 from elan
I took two feats, so no, I don't have any additionals.

Energy arc is a psionic power from the Complete Psionic. It basically is exactly like Burning hands, only I get to specify an energy type. If I choose cold or fire, it does 1 bonus damager per die. If I pick electricity, the save DCgoes up by 2, and if I pick sonic, it does 1 less damager per die but ignores hardness.

George is in the old age category, so he gets a -3 to all physical stats but a +2 to each mental stat.

[Tashalar]

Okay, had a quick look at yours, Fulmen and did not find anything of note. :)

[Tashalar]

8 power points: 2 psion, 2 from high int, 2 from psionic talent, 2 from elanAh, how stupid of me to forget about bonus PPs.
Oh, and I thought that simple weapon proficiency was a normal feat for psions... that's where I was wrong I guess.

Thanks for the info on energy arc and George!

Edit: Did I overlook it or are templates with 0 LA allowed (would have to check if there are any sensible ones out there though)?

Edit No. 2: Not sure about this, but does it really make sense to start with 1 house cat for everyone? It does seem like everyone so far can take on 4 with ease. I'd say we start a little higher... :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

Animal Companions are fine.

If you don't have a starting gold listed use the closest approximation. For Warlock I think that would be Sorcerer.

Are there any +0 templates? If so I suppose they would be allowed. Can't think of any off the top of my head, though my knowledge of content is vastly limited I must admit.

[Tashalar]

Okay, who's going to do the druid with Natural Bond and the fleshraker?

*yawn* ;)


On a sidenote - we should place bets or... at least tips on how many cats each of the characters can take on. Something like an open poll where what everyone chose can be seen.

Edit: I read up on all the threads in this forum... and shame on me, I did not see that being tiny the cats would provoke AoOs for entering the character's square. So... why go with a spiked chain if you can go with a tower shield and daggers instead? Hrhmmm... I think I'll switch that. :)

[Icebird]

Combat Reflexes is so he can pin the little buggers as they come at him, more than 1 per round. And there was nothing else I cared to do with the feat.
I forgot the human skill bonus - I'll edit for that, and put ranks in perform (sillyness).
What bonus did I put down? I'll edit for that too.
I do have gold left - 19 gp, and it's on the sheet.

[Linklegacy77]

You can't take a fleshraker, you need to be level 4 first, even with natural bond.

[BigRedRod]

Really? I could have sworn somebody did it in zachol's recently deceased undermountain game. Did somebody cheat and nobody else noticed? It would explain why that dinosaur was a killing machine.

[Linklegacy77]

That would be cheating.

[BigRedRod]

That rat bastard.

[nightinverse]

I'm hoping the Undermountain can be resurrected. We didn't have a bad party dynamic, for how little we had interacted thus far.

But yes, that rat bastard.

[Doomsmile]

Doomsmile:

Climb skill is -2
Fixed. Oh, and my second entry is up.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Natural Bond can't raise your druid level above your total character levels, just FYI. It's meant as a feat for cross-class druids and rangers.

[Benicus]

I keep saying that to Link he doesn't believe me >.<

[Linklegacy77]

You are, again, partially correct. Natural bond cannot raise it above your total level. However, it is not just restricted to multiclassing, it can also be used to eliminate or reduce the penalty of using an animal companion that would give a penalty.

But you need to be at a high enough level to take the penalty in the firstplace.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Edit: After looking at the Draconomicon feat that does a similar thing I do think it does effectively delete the -3 penalty. I do, however, think this is overpowered and will change the way it works in my campaigns though. Compared to other level 4 feats, this is simply too good.

[Tashalar]

That would be cheating.
That rat bastard.
QFT. :)

I did think something was wrong about that... not sure if I did point it out though. But in any case - that was the reason why I suggested it in the first place.

But I second nightinverse's hope - and I do think that zachol will return to continue with it at some point. Plus, it's easy to do it in that game - it's not as if we have to reread pages and pages of story that has passed. :cool:

Edit: Found another way to get the DR high enough: Human with the feats Fey Heritage and Fey Skin means you gain DR 2/cold iron (Complete Mage pg. 43). Me wants cookie.
Edit No.2: The dragon shaman sounds neat... with his energy shield any cat which deals damage to him will be dead. I really like the idea of a dog-lover out to hunt cats - but I am unsure if we may buy guard dogs to assist? Was there a ruling against this? I guess it would make sense to disallow it as otherwise everyone would be bringing dogs.... :P If it's not allowed, would a single riding dog as mount be allowed?

[nightinverse]

This is why I do not use splat books.

[Tashalar]

Hehe... well, finding ways to deal with those cats with the SRD only is much more impressive than using all and any book available. :)

Edit: Another way to beat the cats with ease (not 100% proof though, but too for me to even try it.):
Dragon Shaman with the Tower Shield proficiency, the toughness feat and the vigor and energy shield auras.
1. Let the cats die while they attack you and attack them back with energy shield on.
2. When below half hp, take full cover behind tower shield and activate vigor until above half hp again.
Go back to 1.

Half a cookie for this?

*********************

Okay, I've got entries for the d10 category and the d4 category for sure. Not so sure yet if the d8 druid will stay or if I'll think something else up. The d6 category is rather hard I think... if anyone could look the three characters over, I'd be grateful (not the druid - the two d10, one I'll have to drop, and the d4)! :)

[Tashalar]

Please bear with me... I am looking in several areas of several books for the very first time...

Another build to beat the cats with 99% probability:
Crusader (Tome of Battle) with the Martial Spirit stance and Combat Reflexes.
Whenever the crusader deals damage in melee, he gains 2 hp. As you can choose when to take AoOs, you can wait until the cats have dealt you 2 damage and then start making AoOs. The cats will never be able to wear you down.
'nother cookie please? :)

*********************

Um... important rules question: How many cats can attack the characters? 4 of them can enter your square and attack at any single time. Can more squeeze in to attack?

[Doomsmile]

Hehe... well, finding ways to deal with those cats with the SRD only is much more impressive than using all and any book available. :)

Edit: Another way to beat the cats with ease (not 100% proof though, but too for me to even try it.):
Dragon Shaman with the Tower Shield proficiency, the toughness feat and the vigor and energy shield auras.
1. Let the cats die while they attack you and attack them back with energy shield on.
2. When below half hp, take full cover behind tower shield and activate vigor until above half hp again.
Go back to 1.

Half a cookie for this? Won't make you invincible- the tower shield's total cover option only gives you total cover from one critter. And you even lose your shield bonus against everyone else when you take total cover.

[Tashalar]

Oh? I did not see that in the SRD... where did you get that info?

This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so.

(I'll fight for my cookies!! :roll: )

[LuneMoonshadow]

Um... important rules question: How many cats can attack the characters? 4 of them can enter your square and attack at any single time. Can more squeeze in to attack?

4 may enter your square and attack at the same time. So at most, you'll only be taking attacks from 4 cats.

As for squeezing the rules exist, but I won't be squeezing cats into squares to exceed the normal "4 per square" rule.

[nightinverse]

Since when is Dragon Shaman SRD?

[Tashalar]

Dragon Shaman is not SRD. Why?

So at most, you'll only be taking attacks from 4 cats.
Good to know. :)

[Tashalar]

Oh, just saw Chris' entries - LuneMoonshadow - could you make a ruling on buying guard dogs?

My dragon shaman would benefit greatly from those as well. :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

I believe buying guard dogs will make the challenge too easy. However, I do not think it violates the spirit of the challenge so I will leave the decision of how much of a challenge the character wants up to the player.

[Tashalar]

However, I do not think it violates the spirit of the challenge so I will leave the decision of how much of a challenge the character wants up to the player.
A dog-lover out to kill cats with his dogs is rather fitting, really. But as you said, it makes it rather easy.

Although easy is relative. Easy against 20 cats... easy as well against 50? In the end, the dogs will be taken down rather quickly at some point.

Hm. I think I'll remove them except for maybe one. To keep the flavor of the dog-lover and cat-hater. Since every character can buy guard dogs regardless of class/build, it's rather senseless. What does everyone else think?

[nightinverse]

I thought you were coming up with an SRD solution.

[Chris Chandler]

...

Lame - I was only doing it for the "dog vs. cat" thing. I wasn't even thinking about something for making the challenge too easy. I just thought the whole "mini-pack" of dogs would be funny. :∙

[Tashalar]

I just thought the whole "mini-pack" of dogs would be funny.
I thought the same, Chris - I had 5 guard dogs up for the dragon shaman. Will remove those in the morning though.

I thought you were coming up with an SRD solution.
Oh, I said that it's much more of a challenge with SRD only - and that those that came up with a good solution had my kudos. I'll see if I can come up with one for the d6 or d8 entry. Although... my first d10 entry - the halfling combat reflexes guy - should be SRD only. And she rocks. :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

There will be another challenge dedicated specifically to cats vs. dogs, if you simply want to wait for that to apply your dog fighting ideas.

[omni-roach]

Anyway, I'm going to enter a character in the d12 bracket. Considering the possibility of being having the only character in the d12 bracket, I'm also going to enter the d10 bracket. I'll have the characters up as soon as both of them are done.

[Linklegacy77]

Oh, I'm entering every single bracket Omni, good luck to you, you're going to need it.

[omni-roach]

I'm pretty sure that pulling a Godzilla on the cats would be considered an illegal move. :P

I don't need luck. Good luck to you though.

God, that quote is overused.

[Doomsmile]

Godzilla? How could you play an ECL 1 godzill- *Gasp!* Kobold barbarian! Briliant!

[Tashalar]

Ah, so there will be d12 entries? Then I'll get one up as well.

d12 and d6 are rather difficult, methinks.


My d4 entry is done and ready to rock. Gods, a sorcerer with 12 hp at 1st level. But he'll need them, his AC isn't high. ;)

I cannot decide between the halfling Combat Reflexes expert and the dragon shaman? Someone help me with the decision!

Btw - I dropped all the 5 guard dogs, but gave him a war pony to ride on. Plus, both of them are wearing hide armor/barding made from several layers of cat pelts. :D
Oh, on dogs... one could make an Aristocrat (NPC class) - with maximum gold he could buy 19 guard dogs. THAT would make a fight.

Okay, I'll work on my d6, d8 and d12 entries today.

[Tashalar]

Um... if I read this correctly, then I've found another build which can beat the cats. A barbarian with the berserker strength class feature instead of standard rage from PHBII. As soon as the barbarian drops below 5 hp, he goes into the special rage and gains DR 2/-. The rage only goes away when he's healed or goes unconscious the way I read it. So... if the cats don't drop the barbarian from 5 hp to -1, he'll be fine and kick them until they are all dead.

*sigh* I thought I could make a dwarven sorcerer for the d6 entry (substitution class), but then... he'd get DR 1/adamantine when he touches the ground. Which he would. Which would mean the character would survive against hordes of cats, but would it be fun? No.

[Chris Chandler]

Consider the puppies gone.

[Linklegacy77]

I like my d6 entry. Quite a bit. I'm still considering my d8, d10, and d12, as I'd like to be unique but still take home the prize.

Drat, I just noticed that Dragon Magic isn't an allowed resource, and I was just about to take a look at the Dragonfire Adept too...

[Tashalar]

One d10 entry has been removed. A warblade has been put up for the d12 entry. Now working on d8 and d6 - one of them will be a SRD entry only, by request of one nightinverse. :)

Could someone do me the favor of checking my warblade? This is the first time I am using the book.

[Tashalar]

Three more days everyone! Keep the entries comin'! :)

Btw - I will be on vacation in Spain... I put it in my sig. I'm rather sure I can find an internet cafe every other day to keep up somewhat though. As eager as I am, I trust my internet survival skills. :roll:

LuneMoonshadow - are traits allowed? Unearthed Arcana is allowed, flaws are not allowed, I know that. ;)
Hm... there are lots of other nice things in Unearthed Arcana... could you specify if only flaws are disallowed?

[omni-roach]

Barbarians are not the only class with a d12 HD? This is new to me! What book is the Warblade from Tashalar? I'm suddenly very interested.

In other news, I'm still working on my d12 entry, but it is almost finished as I still need to decide on what to do with the rest of my $$$. I'll start on my d10 entry as soon as it is done.

[Benicus]

Book of Nine Swords I believe senor.

Bo9 is the shit.

[Linklegacy77]

Tome of Battle, the Book of Nine Swords.

There's also the knight, and IIRC, there are a couple others somewhere to be found...

[LuneMoonshadow]

LuneMoonshadow - are traits allowed? Unearthed Arcana is allowed, flaws are not allowed, I know that. ;)
Hm... there are lots of other nice things in Unearthed Arcana... could you specify if only flaws are disallowed?

Just use the class/skill/magic variants listed from UA. Traits and flaws are from the same breed in my opinion. If it turns out people have an overwhelming desire for traits/flaws it can be put into the next challenge.

[Tashalar]

Just use the class/skill/magic variants listed from UA. Traits and flaws are from the same breed in my opinion. If it turns out people have an overwhelming desire for traits/flaws it can be put into the next challenge.No, absolutely no great desire on my part. But if it is usable, I'd use it. Restricting things further is absolutely fine with me (I don't have to research so much and think about so many possibilities...). :)

[Linklegacy77]

LMS, might I possibly have a short extension of a day or two to put up additional characters? I'm moving the day after tomorrow, and I've been very busy getting everything ready.

[Tashalar]

I'd be happy about an extension if that means that more players can get some characters up. :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

If no one objects an extension will granted that moves the due date to Wednesday. If your character is done before then it'll get checked over. So if you happen to finish up everything post here and let me/everyone know so it may be checked.

[Chris Chandler]

I was really considering a knight... but I just couldn't get into the creation... Not to poo-poo anyone, but my sails got windless after I took the guard dogs out. I made a few attempts (a soulknife - croak, a barbie - meh), then just decided for the two entries.

[Tashalar]

Aww.... windless sails? *puffs and blows at Chris's sails with all his power*

Come on! :)


Hey, I liked your guard dogs.

On a sidenote... I'm also having difficulty getting interesting entries up. I'm heading for a psychic warrior with the stomp power for the d8 entry. Thought of biofeedback which would give him DR2 for 10 rounds, but just didn't like it (Although I think it would be fine as it only works for a limited number of rounds per combat... hm... 6 PPs can be had with a psychic warrior... that's 60 rounds of attacks... add in combat reflexes... and you have cat mush. Boring though.)

[LuneMoonshadow]

You know... I never realized how many builds there were that could become invulnerable to cats at such a low level. Learn something new every challenge.

[Icebird]

For challenges of this sort in the future, I wouldn't allow any of the expansion books. I think the sort of flavor and fun you're looking for is easier to find using only the core books, where I've not found a single way to make a character immune to cats. All the banned spells are second level or higher and there's no way to get DR at first level. Guard dogs are about it, as far as ground breaking stuff.

[Lune]

Or you could use SRD only. That wouldn't include all the expansion books but would include some stuff like psionics and UA stuffs.

[Icebird]

True enough, and that's what I was originally going to say, but I don't know psionics very well and wasn't sure if my statements would hold for the entire SRD. :)

[nightinverse]

For now I need to bow out from this, I'm being assaulted by excessive responsibilities.

[Tashalar]

Ah well... the winds are gone from my sails as well now. I've spent a lot of time sifting through books for good builds to beat those cats and as you have seen I found somewhere around half a dozen ways to beat... like... lots of cats? Or beat them 100% of the time?

Well, having turned in my thesis, I had enough free time to spend on this. But somehow I now feel that I've rather disencouraged everyone else with my effort. The three characters that are up are not game breaking or against the spirit, but they are exceedingly powerful... against cats.

Any cat attacking the dragon shaman will die. When he goes below half hps, he goes into vigor mode and regains hps until he is above half again while being on full defense (AC24)... he won't last forever, but he'll take scores of cats down.
The draconic heritag sorcerer with the 30' cone breath weapon that he can use 3-4 times depending on whether or not he casts mage armor? Surely the cats would all move towards him in as much of a direct line as possible. How can he not kill them with three breaths? You need hundreds to take him down I guess.
The warblade... with his rapier he can attack defensively still scoring critical hits and gaining a two-digit attack and damage bonuses after a while. With his DR maneuver the cats can deal him no damage in 2 out of 5 rounds and he'll take lots of them down with his other maneuver and combat reflexes. It's just bad. He's absolutely not invincible, but terribly powerful.

Ah well, I think I will still put together the psychic warrior - which will be SRD only. Somehow I'm disheartened though.

For now I need to bow out from this, I'm being assaulted by excessive responsibilities.Sorry to hear that. You'll survive though, I'm sure! :)

Or you could use SRD only. That wouldn't include all the expansion books but would include some stuff like psionics and UA stuffs.That would be a good thing imo. Not everyone has access to all books - and those who don't have much less possibilities at their disposal as has been shown.

[omni-roach]

I'm considering leaving, too. Since school started, I don't seem to have enough free time to enjoy myself AND put together a few more characters for this, let alone any other game. I can guarentee that I will be watching this challenge VERY closely, but I'm not placing any bets on any characters yet.

[generaljimX]

Wow, talk about died....

I plan on getting a few characters up...Not sure what exactly, but something. I'll probably make them later today...

[Linklegacy77]

What, nobody is impressed with the psion and the warmage?

[Tashalar]

Link - no one said anything about being impressed by any characters. I only ranted about the power of mine. :depry:

I'm sure there will be more acclaim when the challenge starts. :)

LuneMoonshadow - how will this work btw?
Will each challenger really have to fight against 1, then 2, then 3 and so on cats?
Will you go by bracket - starting with the d4s or d12s for instance and then going on to the next?
Will every challenger fight parallel against the cats or will it be one after another?

[Icebird]

I think we shouldn't start at 1 cat - a single magic missile will ensure a win. Let's let each player choose the number to start against, what they think is reasonable for their characters. I'd say my wizard can take on at least 3 at once.:roll:

[LuneMoonshadow]

The power ability of characters to kill cats far exceeds my initial thoughts. Fighting 1, 2, 3, and so on when a character can take on a number closer to 25 is a brutal and rather pointless affair.

I'll have to think on how the cat number will be decided upon.

And my plan is to run all contestants simultaneously. I don't foresee much work on my part when characters are level 1 and the enemy is always a cat. I suppose the maps would be the only time consuming part. So for now the plan is to run everyone and I'll change it if time proves to be an issue.

I do think these challenges are much better off with SRD only, however. More of what I had in mind, though I do not plan on implementing that rule for this affair. This has been a marvelous learning process, to say the least. For a first for me and the site, I think it's been a success.

[Linklegacy77]

I've just got my internet working where I am now, so expect me to get some characters up tomorrow.

[Tashalar]

Hey Link! I'm curious as to what plans you have with your warmage?

My guess would have been using burning hands to kill those cats - making sure with the Int of 18 to kill cats even if they make their save (75% of the time in that case). Why did you take combat casting as feat though?
Or are you planning another spell?

Keep in mind that I really just looked at the warmage for the first time in the last days due to this challenge. :)

[Linklegacy77]

Well, there are any number of spells I could use. Keep in mind that I'm doing 1d4+4 with a burning hands, so even on a sucessful save, a roll of a one is sufficient to kill a cat. So the spell is guarenteed to kill all cats in range, every time I cast it.

[Tashalar]

Hm... I just saw Burning Hands as the most efficient one. And for some inexplicable reason 5 divided by two was 1,5 for me. Which rounds down to 1. Ah well, it was early morning. ;)

Edit: But now that you've corrected my awesome math skills, I don't get why you made him old? A charisma of 16 and intelligence of 16 would have sufficed as the minimum damage is enough to kill any cat even on a failed save and he does not gain any bonus spells? A higher AC and 2 more hit points would be better I'd wager.

[Linklegacy77]

Yes, well, I wanted to give you all a chance.

[omni-roach]

I am going to laugh my ass off when that warmage dies because he's old.

Or cry when he wins...

[Linklegacy77]

I decided not to make any d8, d10, or d12 entries for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, most of the good ideas that I had are taken, due to the move.

Secondly, and the more important, it wouldn't be any fun for those characters, because all the truly decent cat-killers would be impossible to defeat, since only 4 cats can be in your square at a time to attack you.

[LuneMoonshadow]

In the end I think the d4/d6 entries will be the most fun to watch. The higher hit dice classes seem too well built for cat slaying. Of course we are talking about house cats, so ideally they would be.

In any case I will be looking over the entries and we'll get the challenge started within a couple of days. I'm looking forward to results of the upcoming mayhem. I hope everyone else shares in at least some of my enthusiasm. If not, perhaps you will when the cat festivities begin.

[Icebird]

I at least have not dimmed in my enthusiasm to see Hiro Protagonist (my character) fall under the endless waves of cats. :D

[Tashalar]

Secondly, and the more important, it wouldn't be any fun for those characters, because all the truly decent cat-killers would be impossible to defeat, since only 4 cats can be in your square at a time to attack you.
I agree here - in my search I stumbled over too many too good builds and too few good ones. Either they were nothing special or outright 'winning builds'.

I hope everyone else shares in at least some of my enthusiasm. If not, perhaps you will when the cat festivities begin.
Yes, I do share it - it came back a bit yesterday. My psionic warrior is more or less up as well.

I've found a concept for d6 as well - an Ardent. I'll get that one up until tomorrow. :)

[Tashalar]

Ah, the ardent will have to wait until my tomorrow to be finished - which will be your 'tonight evening'. ;)

Let's give those cats some dinner!

[Tashalar]

Okay, the ardent is up! :)


I'm a bit sad that there's no challenge at all for my warmind. But I guess the warmind is just so much more apt at dealing with cats than a knight or a barbarian... ah well, we might as well drop the d12 part then. Although I'd be curious to see how long he'd last. ;)

[Chris Chandler]

Wait - there's only one d12 competitor?

*sigh*

There's just no sense in that. Look for something later today!

[Tashalar]

Yay! Go Chris! :)

Edit: I'm going to look over the characters I haven't looked at yet now. If anyone can look over mine, I'd be happy about that as well. It's the first time I made an ardent, a warmind or a dragon shaman.

Edit: I did not find anything wrong with the remaining characters - but I did not check saves or skills thoroughly as those won't play any role in this challenge. :)

[Linklegacy77]

You mean warblade right? Warmind is a PrC.

Anyway, I just didn't feel like competing in those higher HD categories, way to easy. Besides, your Warblade isn't as good as you think it is.

My Barbarian would pwn it.

[Tashalar]

Oh? Well, then at least share the concept. :)

[Linklegacy77]

Consider the following: your warblade threatens a crit on an 18-20, correct? Well, the concept you have assumes that you will crit more often than they hit you.

You have a 15% chance per attack, so it isn't bad. But you also have to confirm, and your chances of that aren't exactly sky high. My barbarian would have a much higher hit percentage, and thus would pwn the cats better.

[Tashalar]

Wait... you are saying that a straight forward barbarian will beat 'my' warblade? And you are presenting probabilities and all? Oh, wait until tomorrow when I've slept - I'll get a reply up! :)

Or... do you have some kind of ace for that barbarian? Surely there's something?

*points to sig* Keep that in mind though, everyone! ;)

[Tashalar]

Edit: Putting this first due to its importance - I've thought of taking the dragon shaman out of the challenge and putting my SRD halfling fighter back up. Why? Well, just looking at the probabilities of how long the dragon shaman will survive if he goes on total defense and initiates his fast healing aura when below half hps is... hrhm... well, suffice to say, it might be less fun. Otherwise, I could just forget about that aura and only use the energy shield one. Thoughts anyone?

Ah, thanks for bringing this little mini-challenge up, Link - going through a couple of rounds with the warblade showed me that I am missing quite a lot of information:
cats might very well charge, right? I mean... what's more flavorful than an onslaught of charging cats? I'm just not 100% sure if tiny creatures may charge... can anyone clarify this?
cats have to move into someone's square to attack - but do they then threaten the creature into whose square they moved? IE: would one provoke AoOs if manifesting/casting or moving away when not retreating?
I actually only just saw that those awesome terror cats have three attacks in a full attack - which makes the above question much more important ;)
on warblade: could the steel wind maneuver and stone bones maneuver be used in conjunction? my guess is that it's not possible because while both deal with attacks, both also need a standard action as initiation?Okay, now onto tactics (I know that I am not taking everything into account ;) ):
If I'm assessing the situation correctly, then I'll only use the stone bones maneuver which means the warblade will have DR in one out of three rounds. He will always move so as not to let cats get a full attack and I'm assuming that the cats will always charge. The warblade would start fighting defensively after a few crits, but I did not feel like calculating that. ;)
In 12 rounds the cats will deal him 12-13 damage in this scenario (approximately 1/round), leaving him 2-3 hps. He'll have scored 5-6 critical hits on average so his attack will now be at +10-+11.
DR will be more reliable every other round now - due to a higher hit chance. So... he'll probably last another 3 rounds - making it 15 total. Cats killed... he'll get 90 attacks in those 15 rounds (as long as there are enough cats available) and he'll kill approx. 70.

I'm really curious about that barbarian now. :nod:

[LuneMoonshadow]

Yes, the cats may charge. They provoke AOOs for entering your square as normal.

Once in your square they threaten like any other creature.

I'm not familiar with the maneuvers so I'll let someone else more experienced in that regard answer it.

[Tashalar]

Once in your square they threaten like any other creature.
Ouch. That changes a lot.

I'm not familiar with the maneuvers so I'll let someone else more experienced in that regard answer it.
Link? :)

[Linklegacy77]

on warblade: could the steel wind maneuver and stone bones maneuver be used in conjunction? my guess is that it's not possible because while both deal with attacks, both also need a standard action as initiation?

No, they can't be used together. If you read the initiation action, you'll see why. They each use a standard action to activate, and give an attack as part of that action. Thus, you'd need two standard actions in the same round to use both of them.

Now, you could use a boost and one or the other, but not both together.

Oh, and do note that your Warblade only gets DR if it actually hits with stone bones. If it misses, than it gets nothing out of it.

Also note, that moving out of the cat's square with anything more than a 5-foot step provokes an attack of opportunity. Don't forget that they can 5-foot step too.

Your chance of getting a critical is actually a lot lower than you think it is.

But yes, the barbarian concept I have would actually beat your warblade.

That's why I'm not entering it. It wouldn't be any fun.

[Tashalar]

Thanks for the info, Link.

The fact that the cats threaten changes a lot, but a viable tactic then is to retreat - as long as one does not have to move through squares filled with cats.

Your chance of getting a critical is actually a lot lower than you think it is.
It is? Well, I did not even calculate it with the cats charging and therefore having their AC lowered by 2... so imo it is higher. :)

But yes, the barbarian concept I have would actually beat your warblade.

That's why I'm not entering it. It wouldn't be any fun.
Stop bragging, tell us the concept! I did not ask you to enter... I'm just curious as to the concept.

[Linklegacy77]

I'll keep it a secret for now, and tell you later.

It's fun to torture you.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I will be checking over all of the entries this weekend. Make sure it's in tip-top shape by then. The challenge will officially begin Monday.

The new method of determining cat number will be this...

Starting number: 2. For every hit die category above d4 another cat will be added (3 for d6, 4 dor d8, etc.). New cats will be added one per round unless the player specifically requests more. This means if you know your character can take on 20, request something around 20 to save everyone weeks and weeks of their already sad and pathetic lives.

[generaljimX]

I'm sorry for not getting any characters up for this. I'm a giant procrastonator, and haven't even been on ORP since...Sunday? I also keep forgeting to bring my books home with me, though I could always make something core...Anyways, the deadline is closed, and oh well. I'll just have to enter into the next challenge! I will be watching this one, too.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Fulmen: You don't have any level 0 spells listed. Also, where is your Babau Slime spell found?

Link: Your warmage is using a heavy shield, though he does not have a proficiency. Warmage gains light shield proficiency only, and armored mage also does not apply to heavy shields.

Doom: Malinko needs Craft (Pastry) or Profession (Pastry Chef). Hard to craft a chef. =P


I'll finish up with the entires today. I haven't checked ability scores yet (just everything else) as I plan on doing that in one run on all the characters at the end. Easier that way.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Tashalar: Your Psychic Warrior only gains 1 bonus PP from Wisdom, not 2. Is he also supposed to have the same name as your d6 entry?

Tashalar: Your Ardent only gains 1 bonus PP from Wisdom.


Edit:All ability scores check out. Aside from what I have noted above, characters are ready to go.

[Doomsmile]

Doom: Malinko needs Craft (Pastry) or Profession (Pastry Chef). Hard to craft a chef. =P
Malinko can build whatever he wants in his spare time. It's a... robot pastry chef...... a ninja robot pastry chef....

... I need to make that character.

[Fulmen]

I don't really plan on using any of the 0 level spells, but I'll toss some up I suppose. I got Babau Slime from the Spell Compendium, so I'm not sure where it is found originally. Here is the spell description:

Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature Touched
Duration 1 min/level
Save: Fort negates
A creature that strikes a slime protected subject with an unarmed strike, touch attack, or a natural weapon takes 1d8 points of acid damage. Any creature in a grapple with the target of babau slime takes 1d8 points of acid damage at the beginning of its turn.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Babau Slime is from the Planar Handbook and it's actually a level 3 spell, not level 1. Unless you can find an acceptable source that states otherwise you'll have to select another spell.

[Tashalar]

I'll keep it a secret for now, and tell you later.

It's fun to torture you.
Hehe... well, as long as you do reveil it at some point and it is something good and not something that has a) been brought up or b) is a winning build, then I'll be impressed. I just don't see that come though. ;)

LuneMoonshadow - I'll fix those bonus PPs... hm... I could've lowered their 'manifester scores' in that case, too bad I did not look it up.

[Fulmen]

Babau Slime is from the Planar Handbook and it's actually a level 3 spell, not level 1. Unless you can find an acceptable source that states otherwise you'll have to select another spell.
According to my PDF version of the Spell Compendium it is Abyss 3, Druid 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1. If you don't want to go with that though I can pick something else.

[Tashalar]

According to my PDF version of the Spell Compendium it is Abyss 3, Druid 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1. If you don't want to go with that though I can pick something else.
Well, you are both right. The Planar Handbook version is slightly more powerful though as it damages the weapon/equipment as well. The version from the SC just concerns a creature attacking in a grapple or with natural weapons, unarmed strike or a touch attack. Maybe they changed the spell in the SC which would not make it available for this challenge. I'll look through the books to see if I can find it anywhere else.

[LuneMoonshadow]

According to my PDF version of the Spell Compendium it is Abyss 3, Druid 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1. If you don't want to go with that though I can pick something else.

Unfortunately the SC isn't an allowed source so you'll have to select another level 1 spell.

[LuneMoonshadow]

A million threads in this place now... If you have trouble finding your thread it's broken down by category and I placed your names in the title as well.

I'm having issues with image hosting so I'm working on sorting that out. Your maps will be posted when I solve the problem.

On another note I did not discuss or place anywhere in the rules the required schedule for posting. I'm a fairly busy person (senior thesis, freaking huge game DM) so I understand responsibilities. To move the tournament along I am placing a 36 hour posting time limit from when I post. I will then attempt to update within 24 hours (36 at most). So the more often/quickly you update the sooner you'll get through.

[Fulmen]

Will use Sandblast (Complete Divine) instead then.

[Tashalar]

This is fun! :cool:

I did not know whether to post some fluff or not - I just decided to do it for this round and will stop if the general consensus is not to.

Other than that... I think the system you suggest, LMS, is good. The entry round is nice to get a feel for the challenge and afterwards we can set a real challenge for our respective characters. :)

A question I can already ask at this point though - will you continue placing one cat in one square even if we ask for 30 or more cats or will they start with 2 or more in each square at some point?

Fulmen - kudos for maximum flavor in spell choice for your Asherati.

[LuneMoonshadow]

One cat will be in one square until the first three rows are filled. At that point they will start doubling up.

As for fluff feel free to. There aren't bonuses or anything for roleplaying and there aren't announcers, but the people looking in might find it a more enjoyable read if the characters have a bit of personality.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Holy crap that took forever to update. Such is life.

Slarn: It is your action again (round 2).

Congrats to Tash for already progressing to the next rounds on a few of his characters (but ironically, not his d12 entry). Tough luck on that stone bones thing... missed by 1.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Is there an official map of how the area effect spells work? I looked at a company who does spell effect wire overlays, but the way they did it makes one version of the cone better than the other (covers more squares).

It won't affect the already finished match for Tash, but I think the spell effect cone I used might be too big by 4 squares.

[Linklegacy77]

15 foot cone looks like this (X's are cone blast spaces, O's are empty spaces. C is the character):

OOOOO
OXXXO
OXXXO
OOXOO
OOCOO
OOOOO

[LuneMoonshadow]

I'm looking for 20', 30', and 60' as well.

But I think a 15' cone would actually have only 2 on the second row. Otherwise a straight cone (the one you posted) is better than a diagonal cone because it covers more area.

Diagonal:

OXOO
OXXO
OXXX
COOO

[Linklegacy77]

What I posted is the actual, official ruling on it.

See the back of the DMG.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Okay, so the DMG has them all. Could have just that in the first post. =P

Rather stupid that a straight cone is superior to a diagonal cone, though. Guess that is a just a sad byproduct of the square grid system.

[Doomsmile]

Fulmen? I don't mean to second-guess what you're doing with your character, but you do realize that your wolf has 5-foot reach, making moving into the cat's square of S-5 completely unneccesary, right?

[Tashalar]

First of... that cat gore everywhere looks just awesome! I mean... yucky. :roll:

Congrats to Tash for already progressing to the next rounds on a few of his characters (but ironically, not his d12 entry). Tough luck on that stone bones thing... missed by 1.
Thankee, thankee! :)

Holy crap that took forever to update. Such is life.
Hm... in that case I'll try to reach the limit of 'cats' quickly so that we don't spend too many rounds on this.

Okay, so the DMG has them all. Could have just that in the first post. =P

Rather stupid that a straight cone is superior to a diagonal cone, though. Guess that is a just a sad byproduct of the square grid system.
Yeah, it is a bit strange that one kind of cone covers four more squares than the other, but oh well. Lulu's happy about it.

Hiro has only a moments hesitation as he contemplates killing the other cat. But he is the Hero after all, and he blasts the other cat into oblivion with his second magic missile.
That... is funny! LOL

[Tashalar]

Okay, I roughly calculated what my entries should be able to handle but where some lucky rolls from the cats could end the challenge already... not sure on all of them, but hey... it's my first HEC. ;)

I'd suggest using group saves for some of the matches - actually all of them where the characters have area attacks. Maybe group the cats by four?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Don't overextend your character simply because it takes time to update. I volunteered myself for this so I can see it through.

[Tashalar]

Um... I do hope I have not overextended them. I'll stick with what I said, though. If they lose, then... well... another wins!

Edit: On second thought... I'll reduce Brun's amount slightly. I still have to get a feel for what he can do and how it'll work out, so I'll stay on the - more or less - safe side with him. :)

[Linklegacy77]

I'd like to upgrade the number of cats per round for George, not James, up to 20 for the next round.

[Linklegacy77]

Lune, the damage for George's spell is wrong.

As a warmage, he adds his intelligence modifier to damage with all damage spells, including burning hands.

Thus, it deals 1d4+4. Divide that by 2 on a sucessful reflex save.

Thus, it's minimum damage of 5/2=2.5 is enough to kill a cat.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Indeed. Forgot to add the Warmage Edge bonus. Will fix.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Horribly unlucky rolls for Prrtel. Amusing, though.

If you want to do me a favor from hence forth add your stats at the bottom of the post. AC, attack mod, damage, save DCs. It'll save me some time as I have to look up stats for like 20 characters.

I'll get the rest of the matches up for you Tash later on. Making 70 cats on a single map makes my soul cry. I'll come up with a shorthand for it.

Edit: Also Fulmen I moved your wolf to the R row instead of S. Entering squares isn't cool and realistically your character would know this. No sense putting yourself at a disadvantage.

[Doomsmile]

Rats vs. Cats, round 1! *Ding-ding*

[Tashalar]

Rats vs. Cats, round 1! *Ding-ding*The betting commences!

But alas! I need to get to bed.. it's half past one... in the morning. I'll post tomorrow!

Edit: Two quick things on Prrtel - I think one does not get AoOs when one uses Total defense (learned that in the gladiator tournament) and I also think that the stomp reflex save is for half damage - they'd be stunned as well if they fail their save. :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

Stomp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/stomp.htm): Reflex Negates

You're very much right about the no AOOs thing. Missed that sentence when I looked it up. I'm very busy writing a paper right now (this is my break. woo!) so I'll fix it tomorrow most likely.

[Tashalar]

Aw man! I should have read stomp more carefully! Ah well, I'll let Prrtel deal with it. He'll probably get frustrated as hell... at least his ego will take a huge blow if it hasn't already.

All actions are up - you don't have too much to roll, LMS:
Dragon breath damage is high enough that a save won't help and Brun's stone bones maneuver will succeed so you don't have to roll attacks for the cats either. :)

Note: See my signature, but I'll say it again here - I'll be on vacation starting tomorrow until the 23rd. I will try to find an internet cafe in Spain to update on the battles (with less fluff most probably), but there is a slight chance that problems will make it impossible for me to post... that would mean I'd miss one week of posting. I don't think that will happen, but I would like to ask for leniency in this case. :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

Leniency is for the weak.

Chris: Gertrude readied an action for movement but trigger on what condition? You also can't 5' step and then ready an action for movement either but you can get to the squares without the step anyway.

With regards to Tash's post... does anyone even know for certain if you can ready a mount for an action? I don't see any rules specifically for it, but I also can't find anything that prohibits it.

And it seems to have slipped by me that Swarms are invulnerable to weapon damage, meaning a cat cannot ever kill one. Not even with lucky rolls. Since they attack whatever they see I think using swarms will always lead to a victory. Unless there are so many cats that they cannot attack the swarm so they attack whatever else they can. Thoughts?

Edit: I also will not be updating this weekend because of a lack of computer access. If posting is slow early in the week it's because I have tests Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

[Chris Chandler]

Oh, sorry! Just take the movement without the 5-foot step. The readied action was for if the cats charged - sorry I didn't state it.

[Linklegacy77]

40 cats for George

Not all swarms are immune two weapon damage, certain ones take half damage from slashing or piercing weapons.

[Doomsmile]

The cats deal half of one damage when they hit the swarm... so one damage. It will take 13 hits to kill the rat swarm, so you just need a whole TON of cats, since occupying the swarms area leads to pain.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Yeah, I looked at the wrong swarm when I saw the immunity.

Due to real life I have been extremely busy with papers and tests but I'm through it for now. I'll have updated by tonight for you all. Thank you for your patience.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Fulmen: Your character sheet link no longer works. I need your stats in order to update your thread.

Tash: I am ruling that you may delay a mount's action. This same ruling applies to animal companions as well. They basically function on your initiative count so if you delay, they can too.

[Tashalar]

Please show some weakness then! Leniency!!

Seriously, I finally managed to find an internet cafe but the conditioning is horrid (it's very cold) and I managed to get sick. Not a good combination.

So... I'll probably only update on Sunday or Monday at the latest.

Please bear with me. :cool:

[Icebird]

Well, I may soon get the dubious honor of falling not only to the least cats, but first as well. :)

Stupid low rolls for me and high ones for them...

[LuneMoonshadow]

Yes, it was indeed a copious amount of bad luck aimed directly at your character. Perhaps the next string of them won't be so ill-fated. If they are well... at least you were the first for something?

[Doomsmile]

I figure Kruk-Kruk can safely handle 8 rats for his next round, so let's do that.

EDIT: Oh, and the way the tower shield's rules are worded, taking cover isn't an action and doesn't prevent you from taking attacks of opportunity. Neat, eh?

[Linklegacy77]

Actually, it does.

Under total cover, you can't take attacks of opportunities, since if you have total cover relative to your foe, he has total cover and concealment relative to you.

Thus, you can't attack each other.

[Doomsmile]

But I can 'opp' the other cat. I get total cover from one foe and one foe alone.

[Linklegacy77]

Then the answer would be yes, you can take an attack of opportunity against that cat.

Note that you don't gain your shield bonus to AC anymore while taking total cover behind your shield.

[Doomsmile]

I didn't find where it said that in the SRD. Is it mentioned somewhere in the FAQ? If that is indeed the case, Malinko will not be taking total cover at this time.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Tower Shields grant AC bonus or cover. They can't do both at the same time. When taking the cover option you also forgo all attacks as previously stated. It's all in the tower shield description in the SRD.

[Doomsmile]

Hm... My bad. Cool.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Link: What is James' round 2 action? He has initiative.

[Tashalar]

Okay, let's get some Spanish sun shine into those matches.

Let the games continue...


Btw - I'm really enjoying everyone's posts! Very nice... uh... writing style on those posts of yours, LMS. :)

[Linklegacy77]

Um, I think you made a mistake....

Firstly, entering a creature's threat range never provokes an attack of opportunity, just leaving it.

Secondly, it was a 5' step, which again, never provokes...

[LuneMoonshadow]

It's not a matter of entering someone's threat range,but entering their square. You're moving into an occupied square which provokes an AOO even if it's a 5' step.

If I'm indeed wrong do point it out.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Step backwards 5', swift action and attack to recall maneuver(s).
I glanced through the book but didn't see anything for recalling maneuvers. Just asking for clarification. You mean you're doing the same maneuver again?


I will finish the update tomorrow after class. Not enough hours in the day...

[Tashalar]

I glanced through the book but didn't see anything for recalling maneuvers. Just asking for clarification. You mean you're doing the same maneuver again?It says so under the warblade entry - the three classes recall maneuvers in different ways. A warblade recalls them by using a swift action and either giving up a standard action (he can still move) or a swift action and an attack (he may not use another maneuver in this attack).
This means that he can use the DR maneuver every other round. :)

I do think LMS is correct on the movement part - that gave me quite a few headaches for C&P and one or two other characters of mine. If we move into the cat's squares, then it is we who provoke. Which... is bad. :?

Edit: I am very much looking forward to the description of how Hiro finishes off the sleeping cats with Coup de grâces!! :devious:

"Bring out a full gross oh dem felines! Ima going to make 10 catskin suits, and that sounds like a start!!!"
One gross? 12x12? 144?! o.O
"Why don't cats play poker in the jungle? Too many cheetahs!!!
I'm.. down on my knees.. can't.. breathe.. dying of laughter. :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

[attack one of the cats in B-4 while fighting defensively, then tumble at half speed to avoid AoOs, moving to D-4]
Your modifier isn't high enough to move through a square occupied by multiple enemies.

"Why don't cats play poker in the jungle? Too many cheetahs!!!
Lol...

Bring out a full gross oh dem felines!
Seriously? I don't meant to be Mr. Scotty McRaincloud here, but you did take 1 damage when fighting 6 cats... won't fighting 144 slightly overextend your ability?

I think someone mysteriously interfered with your statistics...
Looking back on it I have no idea how I came up with your attacks. I think I rolled 4 d20s twice or something weird... But yes, they didn't hit you. Got several 18s but never enough to hit. It was very, very weird. Also slightly sad since I wanted to see a character die.

[Tashalar]

Looking back on it I have no idea how I came up with your attacks. I think I rolled 4 d20s twice or something weird... But yes, they didn't hit you. Got several 18s but never enough to hit. It was very, very weird. Also slightly sad since I wanted to see a character die.Hm... well, in that case, I'll think of a new amount of cats to do battle with! But... you are not trying to kill any of my characters, are you? :x-eyed:

Btw - unless I can think of a different, clever tactic, Brun's tactic will remain the same. Alternating rounds with attacks with the stone bones maneuver and moving thereafter and attacks fighting defensively and moving. If you want to speed up again, I'd be fine with that as well. :)

[Linklegacy77]

Where did you get the rule for provoking by entering a creature's space?

[LuneMoonshadow]

The rules for tiny creatures as well as the rules for overrun.

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.

[Tashalar]

I've been checking myself just now and I didn't find any explicit rule stating this (did not check overrun).

If you look at all the info here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm), then it's all rather confusing imho. :?

Some assorted quotes:
Opponent

You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless).
Ending Your Movement

You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Very Small Creature

A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) when doing so.


They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking) an enemy.
These rules don't clarify anything... and it seems that under normal circumstances only tumble, overrun or being three size categories larger or smaller let's one move through an opponents space.

So... as LuneMoonshadow said... overrun would be the answer.

Now... all my quotes really are useless. But at least now I understand it. It helped me, so I'll leave them up! Ha! :P

[Tashalar]

Yay - let's see some blood spraying on those coup de grâces by Hiro! Go, go, go! ;)

[Chris Chandler]

Oh, just put out a... reasonable number for the slaughter - like 80 or so...

Seriously, the same as the other d12 competitor is fine.

Siggi will not take a movement, then. Fighting defensively still stands, though.

[Linklegacy77]

I do believe it is just a general simplification of the rules in order to reduce the amount of thought required.

The rule is if you move through an opponents threat range. Pretty much every player has a threat range of at least 5 feet, thus moving into their square is moving through their threat range.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I don't think that's the case since AOOs are incurred due to exiting threatened space. During the Overrun the AOO is incurred by entering the space, not exiting. Because there is no exiting involved the only other explanation, in my opinion, is that entering a square provokes an AOO.

The tiny creature rules also work the same way. Entering a square isn't exiting a threatened area, so why would it provoke an AOO if it was just simplified?

[Linklegacy77]

You misunderstand the term exiting. Are you not leaving (I.E. 'exiting) a threatened space? Just because you are moving into another threatened space doesn't mean you aren't exiting one.

Otherwise, running in circles around a foe wouldn't provoke an AoO.

[LuneMoonshadow]

You are very much right about that fact. In a very desperate attempt to make myself not look like I was wrong I did some digging and found this:

"A Tiny or smaller creature cannot make an attack of opportunity unless a foe actually enters its space, such as when a foe tries to make an overrun or bull rush attack."

This was found on the Rules of the Game article on the Wizards site (source (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a)).

[Linklegacy77]

And then there is the next sentence:

(This is the only case when entering a space triggers an attack of opportunity.)

Which is never the case with a 5' step.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Edit: Actually the SRD did have the info just not where I was looking. Always fun when searching for "5 foot step" doesn't bring up the part about it never provoking an AOO.

[Tashalar]

Hm... interesting, really. There's something I still don't get though.

By the rules I quoted, none of the characters are able to enter or move through squares just like that. It specifically states that moving through opponent's spaces is forbidden unless you are 3 size categories smaller/larger.

The only way to do this is to either tumble... or use the overrun maneuver. If you fail the tumble check, you fail to move through the square. And overrun is as LMS posted.

So... I don't believe the 5' step rule even matters in this case. You know what... I'll PM BP to throw in his opinion here... or post on 3ebb? Seriously, this issue is rather important as it would change the tactic for a few of may characters as well.

And Elgin... I am very curious about your barbarian tactics. It seems you've had a similar idea to Link's barbarian then... :)

Edit: Btw - what's up with Fulmen's match?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Yes, the rules for something like this kind of break down. Then again, that is what this challenge is here to show... It makes no sense that a 6 foot human can't just stride through a five foot space occupied by a housecat. No overrun needed.

For simplicities sake I will keep the way things are done consistent for this match (except for the 5 foot thing, that will be changed). 4 cats per square, you can still move through. For the next challenge all of this will be taken into account.

Fulmen is MIA. It will continue once he returns and gives me a character sheet.

And who is Elgin? Isn't that a name of someone in the Gladiator Tournament or something?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Note: I just checked and Badari needs to make DC10 Ride checks if she wants the horse to attack and attack herself as well. I might need to adjust this round's action if it has an effect on the rounds that passed before.
If you dismounted how are you fighting with your horse now? And you made all the previous rounds' ride checks fortunately.

I could have sworn you made the check automatically (must have thought it was DC 5). This challenge is horrible for my self-esteem. So many things I've gotten wrong. =P

[Tashalar]

If you dismounted how are you fighting with your horse now? And you made all the previous rounds' ride checks fortunately.Uh... *LMS mysteriously forgets I ever asked this*

The question of whether one gets a +1 to attack from pony back still stands though. You know... generally speaking. :)

And who is Elgin? Isn't that a name of someone in the Gladiator Tournament or something?Wups. "If Tashalar writes Elgin, read Chris."
And I suck at programming, so...


Concerning the rules thingy on AoOs... other people seem to agree with what I thought - have a look here (took the liberty of asking there):
http://www.dragonavenue.com/forums/viewthread/100/

This challenge is horrible for my self-esteem. So many things I've gotten wrong. =PAww... shut up. First of all, not everything you thought you've gotten wrong, you've indeed gotten wrong. The rest are just oversights. ;)

[Tashalar]

To more or less sum up the rules on movement in catty terrain:
no 5' steps into kitty squares
movement out of a kitty square A provokes from the kitties in A unless withdrawal action is chosen
tumbling through kitty squares is... difficult. DC25 for one kitty, +2 for every kitty that is added
overrun - I'll just quote from Kelly's explanation from the link I gave above:
If you use the Overrun action, you will take AoOs from the square you are leaving but not from the square you are entering. They can choose to let you through, or they can attempt to block you. If they let you through, when you leave their square they can take their AoO as normal. If they choose to block you there will be some bonuses and penalties for size differences and number of legs. If they fail the block, then they are knocked prone and you can move along as normal. If they succeed at blocking you they can make a Strength check to knock you prone, then you move back to the square you came from and you will take AoOs from the opponents in the square you were trying to Overrun, but not from those in the square you just moved back to. If they don’t make the Strength check to knock you prone, then you still move back to the square you came from, but since that square was occupied you fall prone once you get there.I'm sure I forgot something, but here they are... RAW, I guess.

It makes no sense that a 6 foot human can't just stride through a five foot space occupied by a housecat. No overrun needed.

Well, they'd still scratch his legs I guess. Other than that... the cats are one size too large for this to work - see above.

[LuneMoonshadow]

no 5' steps into kitty squares
A 5' step never provokes an AOO.

movement out of a kitty square A provokes from the kitties in A unless withdrawal action is chosen
This is true unless it is a 5' step, because of the forementioned immunity to AOOs when taking a 5' step.

Well, they'd still scratch his legs I guess. Other than that... the cats are one size too large for this to work - see above.
I know it works like that but for the remainder of this challenge I'm simply going to ignore this rule. Too many matches have had people moving through cat squares. I also dislike this rule a lot since it makes no sense in my opinion. For the next cat challenge this will be discussed.

[Tashalar]

A 5' step never provokes an AOO.

True enough - but a 5' step into an illegal square is just not possible as per the rules. I have no problem with you handling it differently though. :)

I know it works like that but for the remainder of this challenge I'm simply going to ignore this rule. Too many matches have had people moving through cat squares. I also dislike this rule a lot since it makes no sense in my opinion. For the next cat challenge this will be discussed.
Alrighty! Seriously... I did not think that such a challenge would pose such a... uh... rules challenge!

So... I'll try to quickly summarize how you will treat move actions in the tourny and you either say "Correct!" or "False, stupid!", okay?

5' step: Never provokes AoOs from anyone.
Move + action other than move: Provokes AoOs from cats in your square as well as from cats of squares that you move through.
Move + move (withdrawal): Does not provoke from cats in square that you start in, but from cats in those that you move through.

Hm... did I cover it all?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Alrighty! Seriously... I did not think that such a challenge would pose such a... uh... rules challenge!
Indeed. I thought I had a pretty good grip on the rules that would be used in this challenge, but that was all thrown out the window... heh.

And yes, that summary is correct. Where does it state in the rules that you can't 5' step into someone's square. I always thought you couldn't but I didn't find a rule for it myself.

[Chris Chandler]

Wups. "If Tashalar writes Elgin, read Chris."
And I suck at programming, so...



See, now that's funny.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Link: George's thread has been editted to account for the lack of cat AOOs when taking a 5' step.

Tash: Forgot to answer earlier, but yes you do get +1 attack bonus for high ground in this challenge. Here is the excerpt describing how it is determined, emphasis added:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground

Tash: Your sped up rounds will also come tomorrow.

[Linklegacy77]

Might I see a map for James to see where the cats are placed?

[LuneMoonshadow]

The map is in the post like normal.

Edit: Just noticed I forgot to take full attack options for the cats in George's thread. If anyone notices that I forget to do it (because most of the time they are attacking only once) please inform me so I can fix it.

Edit2: George's thread has been edited accordingly. Let me know if you want your current action to stand or if you edit it.

[Tashalar]

I think George is supposed to be in row A somewhere, not row B if he is squeezing?

[Icebird]

Sleep can only affect 4 HD of creatures, and I think that for this purpose the cats' 1/2 d8 count as a full HD. This would mean he can only put four to sleep, rather than the six you have in the last post. My action was based on the supposition that all six were asleep however - if this changes, I'll need to adjust it.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I searched the subject but the entries related to hit dice don't say that the half is rounded up to a full for the purpose of spells like that. Because of this I am assuming the half really is a half, so sleep can put up to 8 cats asleep at a time.

[LuneMoonshadow]

For all competitors, please put your stats at the bottom of your posts. It shortens my posting time so if you do it I will like you more. Here is a very nice example that you should shamelessly copy:
Mount: AC 19 / attacks: +3/+3 / damage: 1d3+2 / # of AoOs: 1
Badari: AC 20 / attack: +2 / damage: 1d3+1 / # of AoOs: 5


In another effort to shorten my posting time, anyone who is significantly ahead of their opponents will have their thread stalled. That way you're not fighting a million cats when they're still fighting 12. Characters currently affected by this: Lulu (d4), Badari (d10)


We have had our first loss as well. Poor George. =( That failed concentration check really screwed him over big time. Hopefully James will be able to avenge him.

I am also ruling that anyone idle for 1 week without an indication of where they have gone off to (meaning vacations and emergencies don't count) are disqualified from the challenge. No sense in disappearing for a month then coming back. This will take effect next Wednesday, meaning anyone 1+ weeks idles starting then will find their thread locked. =(

[Tashalar]

OOC: Cats die no matter the result of their reflex save. Cats attack, squeezing into the square. One cat manages to hit with an 18, dealing 1 damage and taking George down to 0. Because this puts him in a state where he cannot cast without falling unconscious he has to kill all of the cats with a single spell. No spell on the Warmage list has the ability to kill all of the cats in their current formation so George is forced into a loss.George bit the dust? Woah! That concentration check really messed things up... (the map is beautiful btw - showing how they doggie... uh... kitty pile on him).

It's more or less futile I guess, but could he not use move actions to adjust his position until he either a) dies or b) gets into a position to use burning hands to maximum efficiency?

And... did you say George is being feasted upon?! Does that mean that eventually all characters more or less have to die in the end? :evil:

I hate you, Tashalar. Took you 13 rounds to kill them all... About damn time.LOL Wow - a +16 attack bonus and +11 to damage... nice outcome!

In another effort to shorten my posting time, anyone who is significantly ahead of their opponents will have their thread stalled. That way you're not fighting a million cats when they're still fighting 12. Characters currently affected by this: Lulu (d4), Badari (d10)Add C&P and Brun to this as well - if Chris' bard and barbarian manage to kill their lot and Doomsmile's warlock progresses far enough, we can continue with them.

The only character it would really make sense to continue with is Prrtel. Whose confidence is once more shaken. "Pow?" anyone? :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

It's more or less futile I guess, but could he not use move actions to adjust his position until he either a) dies or b) gets into a position to use burning hands to maximum efficiency?

Using a single move action provokes AOOs. Running around would have gotten him killed as well. It would go like this: George moves, cats charge, George moves, cats charge, etc. Unfortunately.


[overruns to D-1 and E-1 respectively]

You don't need to overrun to move through their squares for this challenge. Feel free to edit your post to get your standard action back.

[Linklegacy77]

Uh... James did 5 damage with his energy arc...

One a passed save, it still should have killed them. 5/2 = 2.5, rounded down is 2. Not one.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I actually rolled damage because I didn't see yours. I'll edit it in during my next round of updates this weekend. It doesn't really change anything at the moment.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I apologize for the delay in my updates. I got involved with more things over the weekend than I planned.


James: Your post was edited and now has the correct outcome of your Energy Arc.

Gertrude and Pete overrun the cats to the left -
[overruns to D-1 and E-1 respectively]
You don't need to overrun to get into those spaces. You can 5' step there and take no AOOs. Besides, if you do move there they still get full attack options. Want to edit your action?

[Chris Chandler]

Changed Gertrude's action.

[Tashalar]

Grrr... why a '1' on Prrtel's first roll? That was the most important one! :x-eyed:

Ah well... let's see how he fares against two score.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I wasn't at my apartment yesterday for the update so I didn't have any dice. I ended up using the Wizards Dice Roller and it seemed to give a lot of high numbers and a lot of low numbers... Of course humans are bad at judging randomness so maybe I'm just crazy.

[Tashalar]

Of course humans are bad at judging randomness so maybe I'm just crazy.Maybe... but who's to judge? :ditsy:

Well, well... you've got a whole bunch less to work with / update now, eh LuneMoonshadow? Btw - what about Doomsmile? Nothing from him/her in some time (although (s)he is online most days)?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Anyone who hasn't posted in 1+ weeks starting tomorrow is disqualified. Perhaps he'll check in on this though and post. If not... well, there is always next time I suppose.

I also think I might have to celebrate the ongoing destruction of PCs. More free time on top of bloodshed?! There is truly no greater event.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Another one bites the dust. So sad since I liked Siggi's jokes.

With Siggi eliminated and Kruk disqualified C&P magically wins the d6 division! Likewise Badari wins the d10 division since Malkino is disqualified! We have some winners!

Still plenty of matches to go, though...


And anyone not putting stats into their posts (Link, Chris) should start. =P

[Tashalar]

Awww... I did not want to win due to disqualifications. :?

I'm still unsure how many cats the warlock with summon swarm would have been able to kill. Can anyone estimate this just for fun and explain why?


And... woah! If you continue to roll as high, LuneMoonshadow, you'll have a few more deaths soon... poor Siggi. "Let me back inside!" *sniffle*
I always shudder inwardly when the cats start their feast. I'll do my best to spare my characters that fate. ;)

[Linklegacy77]

Sorry about that, will do.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Giving you all an update on my status: In the process of writing two papers (one being my senior thesis) tonight. Your next rounds will come tomorrow. Perhaps another death?...

Let's hope so.

[Tashalar]

Let's hope so.
Noooooooooo!!! :roll:

I'll cross my fingers for you that everything works out as intended with your thesis. No loss of files or corruption, no silly mistakes when tired, no anything that would get you frustrated. ;)

[LuneMoonshadow]

Luckily a senior thesis isn't too hard (not like a dissertation). I just finished my third draft so hopefully everything is in order so I can start experimenting on people. :evil:

Update will come tonight after I finish my take home test.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I didn't finish until just a while ago and I have a test in 7 hours. =( 2 am sucks.

I'll update this weekend, I promise. Maps will be an issue though, so I'll describe them in detail then post maps when I get back to my apartment Sunday.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Well it's been forever since I updated and I apologize for that. Real life just seems to step in at full force periodically.

We do have another death. =( Poor Prrtel... then again, stomp wasn't the best of choices. =P

Chris you need to post.

[Tashalar]

*cries*

We do have another death. =( Poor Prrtel... then again, stomp wasn't the best of choices. =P
How can you say so? It was an awesome choice. The cats would have to roll a '9' or higher to prevent any damage, agreed, but... but... if they failed their save, they'd likely go prone and die! How cool is that?! :roll:

Well, agreed. Now I'll switch from active participant to spectator. :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

HEC is slowly coming to a close. I apologize for my slow updating. Real life is just difficult right now.

I wish the remaining 4 competitors the best of luck... hopefully someone will survive long enough to snatch the winner's title.

[Linklegacy77]

*sigh*

I was actually originally going to use the breath weapon trick that is being used to devastating effects, but thought it would be too cheap and against the spirit of the competition to do so.

Oh well. James is very efficient against cats, but I doubt he can take on 70 or more.

[LuneMoonshadow]

The breath weapon trick is indeed very overpowered. I do plan on running an HEC II when I get time and it'll be much more balanced and explicit in the allowed material. Too much of a power imbalance here.

[Linklegacy77]

My contest will be:

You make one level 20, using core rules only. You get not rest time, no resource restoration. You will fight a level cr 1, then 2, then 3... until you die.

The winner will be the one who makes it to the highest cr foe. Enemies will not necessarily be core too, and will be chosen randomly.

[Tashalar]

"We've got 'em now, Pete! *cough*"

Optimism for the win! Yay! :)

I was actually originally going to use the breath weapon trick that is being used to devastating effects, but thought it would be too cheap and against the spirit of the competition to do so.
Yeah, I can see that it is overpowered. At the time I made the characters, I just checked if they would win more or less by default or not. Since Lulu would lose at some point against the hordes of cats, she was fine - or so I thought. I ruled out about half a dozen or more winning builds that where the cats would not have had any chance.

I decided not to make any d8, d10, or d12 entries for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, most of the good ideas that I had are taken, due to the move.

Secondly, and the more important, it wouldn't be any fun for those characters, because all the truly decent cat-killers would be impossible to defeat, since only 4 cats can be in your square at a time to attack you.
Still curious, Link. At the time you posted it there was one d12 entry, two d10 entries, and three d8 entries. What would have been the barbarian 'trick' you mentioned a while back? Yeah, curious if there's a foundation for your boasting earlier... ;)

You make one level 20, using core rules only. You get not rest time, no resource restoration. You will fight a level cr 1, then 2, then 3... until you die.
Interesting. Core=PHB, DMG, MM, right? Curious to see how that will play out. :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

Interesting. Core=PHB, DMG, MM, right? Curious to see how that will play out.

Core sometimes means SRD as well. Depends on the person. With Link I'd wager it's SRD.

[Tashalar]

Hrhm... that would mean psionics are in... and unearthed arcana and all that stuff? Let's see what he had planned. :)

[Linklegacy77]

Actually, you lose that wager this time. Core for this contest is going to be PhB, DMG, and MM only.

My resources are of course different.

Tashalar, I'll tell you what. If you can't figure it out, I'll tell you. But I'll give you some time to look it over.

[Tashalar]

My resources are of course different.Anything else would be boring! :)

What about items and the like though? At 20th level it might very well boil down to who buys the right magical item combination... will it be NPC gold like for the gladiator tournament? And by going from round to round - does that mean that as soon as a monster is dropped, the next appears at a random distance and initiative is rolled? And... and... well, be prepared for a host of questions from me. Ask BP. :roll:

Tashalar, I'll tell you what. If you can't figure it out, I'll tell you. But I'll give you some time to look it over.Well, I looked back when you said it the first time. The only thing I came up with was something that I had posted already at that time - and which was against the spirit of the rules in my opinion. So I'm really curious - and won't be looking any further. So you might as well go ahead and surprise/impress me. Although I'm quite a bit sceptical as you might notice... ;)

[Linklegacy77]

James should have had 9 hp's as a result of vigor, not 7. He starts with 4, and vigor gives 5 temporary hit points. Thus, he should have 8 right now, not 6

[LuneMoonshadow]

He had 9 then he took 2 damage, taking him to 7. Then he took 1 damage, taking him to 6.

[Linklegacy77]

My bad, I missed that in my calculation.

Anyway, there's no way James can come out on top in the d4 category because of the abusive power that is the breath weapon, but I'll see how high I can push it.

Next fight: 70 cats.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Looks like James will be the last competitor. Should be interesting to see him take on 70 cats.

HECII should fix the problems this would had and will provide a more balanced and fair competition. Some of the divisions have been fun to watch, though.

[Linklegacy77]

If he had more power points, he might be able to do it. After all, only 4 cats can attack him each round, and they won't all hit. Vigor gives 5 temp hit points, so technically, with enough power points, he'd never lose.

[Tashalar]

Anyway, there's no way James can come out on top in the d4 category because of the abusive power that is the breath weapon, but I'll see how high I can push it.
That's the spirit! And while you're at it, go for 71 cats! :)

HECII should fix the problems this would had and will provide a more balanced and fair competition. Some of the divisions have been fun to watch, though.
I'm already curious. And I agree - this has been fun despite some players dropping out.

[Icebird]

Well, I know I certainly had fun. I would have liked to have taken on the 21 cats, but turns out burning hands was far less effective then sleep would have been. :)

[Linklegacy77]

Hey LMS, you going to participate in the Challenge Rating.... challenge?

[LuneMoonshadow]

Time is a valuable commodity now-a-days, so unfortunately no.

[Linklegacy77]

bummer

[Tashalar]

Seconded.

[LuneMoonshadow]

Time is a valuable commodity now-a-days, so unfortunately no.

I apologize for my delay in posting for so very long. I'll update today and I hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

[Chris Chandler]

Ah, well, it was a good match - You have a good Turkey-day, too!

[Tashalar]

And to you all as well! :)

[LuneMoonshadow]

Finally back from finals and holiday. I apologize profusely to you, Link, for holding up your match for so freaking long. Would you like to finish it here and now or just call it and work on your CRC?

[Linklegacy77]

Let's finish it.

[LuneMoonshadow]

I have crowned the victors of the challenge finally. 'Bout time, huh?

Grats to everyone who participated and an extra grats to those who managed to make the winning builds.

You will also notice that I made James the winner in the d4 competition instead of Lulu and that is because I do believe Lulu's build was against the spirit of the competition. I blame myself for not catching it earlier and I apologize to Tash for my mistake. Then again, he did win the most brackets so he can afford to give up one. :P

I'll close this thread down and move in a couple of days. Keeps your eyes open for HEC II which will feature better gameplay which is also more balanced.

[Tashalar]

You will also notice that I made James the winner in the d4 competition instead of Lulu and that is because I do believe Lulu's build was against the spirit of the competition. I blame myself for not catching it earlier and I apologize to Tash for my mistake. Then again, he did win the most brackets so he can afford to give up one.
Agreed. :P

Thanks for hosting this, LMS! 'Twas a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to the next one! :)

Now that the challenge is over, maybe Link will finally reveal his crazy barbarian build? Hrhmm?

[Linklegacy77]

I'll give you a hint: in involved the martial study feat, with the martial stance feat, in order to, more or less, win quite well.

I used barbarian because that class gets the best chance to hit an enemy at level one (rage gives a +2 to hit).

[Tashalar]

Hm... I found the two feats but I don't know what you are getting at, Link. Admittedly, when I made my d12 competitor was the only time I have so far really looked through the ToB - and I've forgotten most already.

Instead of searching through those maneuvers, I'd rather have you (or another who understands this tactic) explain it to me. ;-)