Epic 2

[TheDruid20]

Due to an overwhelming response I have decided to start a second one. There will be 4 in each game. If I put you on the waiting list send me your idea. Once I have that I will split the two. So those intrested in the last spot or two let me know, and if yoru on the waiting list let me know if your still intrested.

[WhoNAN]

Billy, where do you want the sheet?

[Beidamon]

Heres a warning, creating a near invincible charecter does not seem to be the best way to make your DM like you....

Who would of thought...

Sure being unhitable and having near impossible spell resistance to beat and being able to hit most things on a regular basis, having a whole slew of special abilities, spells per day, immunities, the ability to fly at amazing speeds with perfect manuverability, the ability to heal yourself and bring people back from the dead (in 2 levels) and..... umm what was the question?

Anyways, just saying, you might want to create a extremely versitile charecter instead of a super man power house of doom like I did. I found that it seems to be a good way to make your DM hate your charecter with a vengence hehe

Oh, did I mention hes immortal to? ;)

[SponkleofInfini]

So what god did you say you were again?

[Beidamon]

He's not a god, He's immortal

Immortality doesn't make you a god, it just means you dont die of old age, hence you live forever unless killed. ;)

[WhoNAN]

Snap, back to the drawing boards..... 20th Level Snail Commoner here I come!!! :-p

[Beidamon]

If you do that maybe you can convince billy to let me lend you Betsy the War Cow ;)

Its from one of my charecter concepts that never took flight....

[SponkleofInfini]

I wasn't being serious with the god comment you know beid :)

[Skreem]

Just from an outsider who hasn't even looked at the beta-release notes on the epic stuff (but has read many posts)...

Hey Beid,

If you can create a character that is a better fighter than a same level pure fighter, and is also a better spell-caster than a pure wizard (or sorc), and is almost as good as a pure cleric.. with the same benefits granted to only other special classes...... wouldn't you think that MAYBE somewhere you are taking advantage of something that's broken? And if that's possible, doesn't the DM have a right to disagree with accepting something that may be broken? As a DM (I know, I haven't done any online, but do in my spare??? time IRL) I know that I would seriously consider a character like that before allowing it in a group...

Nothing against you Beid, but from your comments, I would probably agree with Druid.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Well there are two core classes that grant agelessness, the druid and monk. At high levels, both will cease to age. There are other prestige classes that can do the same thing and/or alter your creature type to get around the aging process. Is this ability "broken"? Not really unless your DM is in the habbit of rapidly accelerating time and you're a race that ages rapidly.

On a note similar to this, has anyone aged their characters or are they all post adolecent 20th level characters? :devious:

[Beidamon]

Now, I never took advantage of something that was broken.

Im a better fighter right? Well, I believe that the relationship between a monk and a fighter is like the relationship between a fighter and a wizard. The fighter is good at low levels but as you get to the higher ones he starts to loss ground to the power of the wizard, but to make up for this at low levels the wizard is relatively weak. The same is true for the monk, at lower levels they do not really make that good of fighters, but as you get to higher levels they start making up for that by becoming better fighters then fighters.

As for spell casting, you dont understand what I was saying, I dont have better spellcasting then a Sorcerer or a Cleric, not even close, I said I had a whole slew of spells per day, as in from special abilities and racial spells. In my case it was from having the half celestial template that gave me a bunch of spells to use each day.

So, to conclude, if you look at it as it is nothing is broken, a monk SHOULD be a better fighter then fighters at high level, and im giving up 3 levels to get what spells I get, that, while being formitable in some cases, no where near match the power of a pure cleric or pure sorcerer.

Before you claim things are broken maybe you should take the initiative to go look at the charecter to see why he gets the things, and not try to base arguments over faulty assumptions. My charecter was made completely by the rules, and there is nothing broken about him. My DM does not disagree with him because he is based on something broken, he disagree's with him because he has insane power. When you can do 190 damage to a dragon in one round of combat, and fly through a prismatic wall unscathed, it starts to annoy the DM, but it doesn't mean anything is broken.

[Beidamon]

My immortality doesn't come from that, it came from one of the many debats me and billy have over the properties of various things not stated in the core books. My immortality comes from the fact that I was able to convince billy that if a race with a infinite lifespan (Celestial) and a race with a finite lifespan (Human) mated, then the half way point between their ages would still be a infinite lifespan. It was more complex then that but its effectively boils down to that.

As for charecter age, my charecter is probably 50 or 60 years old, but because of the whole immortality thing he still looks about 30.

PS. Just for those who might want to know, I also gave up the bonuses from aging to make it fair ;)

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Beidamon, your Natural Armor rating is one point worse than you think. The Half-Celestrial grants a +1 natural armor rating. It doesn't stack with your +5 amulet (whatever) of natural armor. Same name bonuses don't stack! Just thought I'd point that out to you.

[Beidamon]

Thats anouther one of the debats me and billy had that never got resolved.

One bonus comes from a racial ability, one comes from magic. Magic bonuses dont stack, but this is a racial NA, not a magic bonus, and there is the fact that the spell gives a +5 BONUS to NA, and does not set your NA to +5. So all in all its a grey area we never really sorted out.

It would make sence that they stack though, or else a dragon would have to buy a +50 NA item to raise his armor by 2, and that just doesnt make sence...

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Since the natural armor amulet uses Barkskin as the base spell for the enhancement, it should follow the same rules for the spell. The spell's description says: "Since the AC bonus is a natural armor bonus, it does not stack with any natrual armor the subject may already have."

From the DMG: "Bonuses of different type always stack. So a +1 cloak of resistance works with a paladin's general +2 bonus to saving throws. Identical types of bonuses do not stack, so a +3 longsword would not be affected by a magic weapon spell that grants a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage.
Different named bonus types all stack, but usually a named bonus does not stack with another bonus of the same name (except for enhancement bonuses to armor and shields, enhancement bonuses to ranged weapons and their ammunition, dodge bonuses, synergy bonuses, and some circumstance bonuses)."

I don't see natural armor among the exceptions. It was page 176-177 in the DMG that I found that quote.

And like I said, using the stacking rules, you get the better of the two same named bonuses. In this case you have a racial +1 natural armor and a +5 magical natural armor bonus. Comparing the two, they're both natural armor bonuses but you take the better of the two, a +5 NAB. There is no distinction/difference between a racial and magical bonus when it comes to natural armor or physical armor for that matter. Otherwise you could stack a Mage Armor with normal armor.

The +1 natural armor bonus that the half celestrial template gives is added to the base creature's natural armor. It works in the same way as all the other templates work. They're additional modifiers that stack with the base creature. The example creature in the monster manual is a half-celestrial unicorn. A normal unicorn has a natural armor class of +6. With the half-celestrial template it is increased to +7. Barkskin won't stack with this.

Dragons don't need additional natural armor. What they could use is deflection, luck, armor (think dragon barding), and dodge bonuses. They would need that natural armor bonus item if they polymorphed into a human or humanoid creature.

Of course your DM could always overrule this. If he does, be even more afraid of magic using natural armored foes like your dragon. Or any druid that can cast barkskin before shape changing or on his animal companions. The intelligent dire bears with increased natural armor, ew! :evil:

[Skreem]

Beid -

It should have been apparent to you that I was simply stating a fact of a general situation, and was basing my comments (as I said) completely on your post in this thread. I don't (nor did I) pretend to have the time to examine your complete sheet (as I am at work)... I was simply pointing out that IF you are better then a pure of several core classes, then I would expect something was broken.
As you have now pointed out that you are playing a half-celestial monk... then I don't see any problems. I have always agreed with your comment that a monk (like the wizard) starts off very weak, and becomes very powerful for surviving. This is always the disadvantage of starting off at high levels - noone had to actually survive the first 1-19 levels!

In response to your comment that I should read your character sheet before attacking, I comment that you should make certain you are being attacked before going on the defensive! I specifically used the word "IF" along with a very specific example to avoid you thinking I was attacking your character, and was merely responding based on the few comments I had read.

[Beidamon]

Barkskin is a bad example, its not toughening your skin as the amulet is doing, its setting your skin to a toughness. That is why it does not stack with existing NA. It doesn't make sence that a monster wtih +5 natural armor cant get a item to enhance his natural armor while a human with no natural armor to begin with can. You have to know there are other creatures out there, and relative to them humans just have a negative modifier to their natural armor.

[Beidamon]

Plus they could be considered diffirent things, like a deflection bonus and a armor bonus stack while both adding to a charecters armor, one could argue that these are diffirent modifiers, one is a racial modifier that adds to NA and one is a NA modifier that adds to NA. Both are from diffirent sources so it makes sence they would stack.

[Beidamon]

Yes, posting again, I hate editing and need to get post total up. To support my argument look in the PHB under all the races. Look at the bonuses they get. They almost never get a named bonus to anything. If they get bonus to skills its not a circumstance bonus or anything like that, its a racial bonus, and stacks with everything. When they get a bonus to saves they dont get a resistance bonus they again get racial bonuses to saves. Its like this in almost any case, so for a natural armor bonus that you get because of your race it only makes sence that it is a racial bonus to natural armor, and being a racial bonus to natural armor it would stack with a natural armor bonus to natural armor.

[Skreem]

Beid -

Although I can understand where your argument might be coming from, I must agree with Fiend on this one.

The amulet grants you Natural Armor of +5.
You have Natural Armor of +1.
You would get the better.

Much like the spell Mage Armor. Mage Armor grants you a magical armor of +4. This doesn't stack with your current armor.

It's the way the system works (whether you agree with it or not), you cannot wear 5 layers of leather armor (+2) and have a +10, just like having a layer of +5 skin and a layer of +1 skin won't stack. If the weapon strike was good enough to get through the biggest armor bonus, it's then good enough to get through any of the other armor bonuses. The game doesn't take the physics of thickness into consideration.

[TheDruid20]

Well the issue is the amulet give s +5 NA bonus, not set yoru natural armor to 5. He has a NA of 1 not +1. Yes racial bonuses stack, with everything, another sticky point. Why are there never any easy answers.... So if ANYONE has any examples where it doesn't stack , printed of course, let me know.

[Beidamon]

This is diffirent though (and i already have a +5 deflection ring, how else would i get 57 AC) those examples are all of external things. No racial ability gives you a bonus to armor, if it did it would come in the form of NA, not a armor bonus. The problem is that multiple magic powers with the same bonus name do not stack, but because the natural armor comes from race it could be called a racial bonus to NA, and not a NA bonus to NA. Then they would be able to stack because a racial bonus stacks with everything

[Skreem]

Simple solution, which might work:

Helmet of Luck +5 = +5 luck bonus to AC cost: 62,500 (per the rules of item creation).

Don't know what your gold totals are however (as I don't have the books some of your items come from), but the cost is 12,500 addition.


However, from the SRD:
"Natural Armor: A natural armor bonus is the type of bonus that many monsters get because of their tough or scaly hides. A natural armor bonus bestowed by a spell indicates that the subject’s skin has become tougher."

and

"Amulet of Natural Armor

This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him a natural armor bonus to his AC of from +1 to +5, depending on the type of amulet"

This can be read in two interpretations: "... the subject's skin has become tougher" could mean that the + provided by the amulet, makes the current skin that much tougher.
However, the clarification that this is the same type of bonus indicates stacking limitations, as Natural Armor is not one of the types exempt from stacking limitations.

[TheDruid20]

The bonus is is Natural armor not racial, a bonus cannot have two types of bonuses. So its either a racial or a natural armor bonus. And since its a natural armor bonus I would rule it would stack with the bonus from another race, which is specififes it does under half celestial. It does NOT stack with a magic item, UNLESS the magic item says so or can be implied. As it is writen the amulet provides a +5, not 5, natural armor so it stays.

[TheDruid20]

After rereading the amulet it gives a bonus to the AC not the natural armor so it does NOT stack. So unless you find me evidence of it in use where it does my decision is final.

[Skreem]

Druid -

You make an interesting point that was sitting there under our noses all along!

The amulet (as well as the real deal) provides a natural armor bonus to AC.
The affected stat is AC. There is no stat called Natural Armor.

[WhoNAN]

This thread went to left field.... topic wise... oh well. If you all would like to continue I'll just pop it into another thread, this is one of the many stacking dilemma's... My current cunnundrum is SR and magic item bonuses to that...... ooooohhh the fun.

[Skreem]

I thought I remembered seeing something about this somewhere, but can't find it now, but SR is like anything else, and doesn't stack. AFAIK there's no item that specifically grants additive SR.

.... but I guess this belongs in that new thread ;)

[Beidamon]

Yes, actually you can in fact get a item that raises your SR, it just has to be a item specifically designed for that. I found one that does it on Monte Cooks site and used a modified version of it for my charecter. As for presidence then merely look in master's of the wild. There certain classes have SR that stack with other SR stuff, which also sets a precidence of stacking SR being possible under some conditions. So all you nay sayers, take that!

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

After seeing Monte's Ranger class, I'd be skeptical about taking anything from his site at face value.

With regards to spell resistance and damage reduction, the powers don't stack. You would if you had two or more ways of getting the powers, take the better or best of the lot.

Example: Your race provides 10 + CL in SR. You have a shield that gives a SR of 17 and an amulet that gives a SR of 22. Your current class level is 10. Your SR would then be 22 from your amulet.

Example 2: You have a DR of 3/-. You have armor that provides 20/+1. A mage casts stoneskin on you for 10/+5 (110). You would get to use different DR numbers based on the type of weapon that strikes you. For a mundane, silver or any non-magical weapon that hits you, you'd get to use 20/+1 as your DR. If you're hit by a +1 or greater weapon up to a +4, you'd use 10/+5 as your DR. If struck by a +5 or better weapon you would use your 3/- DR.

Now wasn't that simple?

[WhoNAN]

That or you can do this.

Hey Billy, can I create an item that gives a bonus to SR? And what would be the grounds for it if yes.

:-)

Ask the DM of the game.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Taken from the FAQ

If my character has a robe of the archmagi and is in the area of effect of a holy aura spell, does my character now have a 42 spell resistance?

No. The general rule against stacking similar effects applies here; the character gets only the best spell resistance. Against most effects, the character uses the spell resistance of 17 that the robe of the archmagi provides. Against evil spells or effects from evil opponents, the character uses the spell resistance of 25 that the holy aura spell provides.


I knew I had seen it somewhere. But once again, the DM is always right. Maybe SR does stack?

[TheDruid20]

I agree with Fiend here, there is no WoTC item I can think of that would allow SR to stack. That does NOT mean you cannot make one. Naturally they are not cheap.

[Beidamon]

Hmmm you used the FAQ against me, maybe I should role over and quit. Or! maybe you should go look in the Masters of the Wild area of the FAQ and look at the area on the STACKING SR OF SOME CLASSES. IT quite plainly shows that in some cases SR can stack, and sets a presidence for a item being able to add a bonus onto SR. As for your example they are both completely wrong. Im not buying a SR 17 item and a SR 25 item and thinking they will stack, I bought a Item that gives a BONUS to SR, not one that gives SR so that does stack with SR.

Using rules that exist and sources on the stacking is all well and good, but before you do that you have to actually make sure they apply to the argument at hand.

As for the Ranger class, there is a diffirence, he said himself that it was somewhat unbalanced but because he had no intention of publishing it he left it as a unfinished work and didnt go over it balancing everything and fixing and problems with it, if he had it would likely be alot more balanced. This item however that granted SR was one that came from one of his books, and since he put it in his book it is a finished product and would have been balanced.

[WhoNAN]

I haven't found any sanctioned WoTC Items for additive SR, hence the desire for some sort of grounds for making one.... and since this is really only for use in your game Billy... I am asking you what you think is fair.... or just not at all.

If its possible I'm interested... if not oh well.

[Beidamon]

He probably will think its fair, he let my monk have one.....

Oh wait, got that in reverse....

He let my monk have one, so he probably wont think its fair any more lol

He might though, since its not just my SR that annoyed billy but how it all came together.

[TheDruid20]

yes DM is seriously considering Mord's Disjunction on a certain monk......

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Hmmmm....maybe I should read those sourcebooks from cover to cover? I tend to just look at the classes, feats, spells, and briefly gloss over the magic items. For the most part, I'm leaning towards the idea that the supliments follow the Games Workshop philosophy, the latest book must out perform, out cheese the last one. While it might be good marketing sense, it's not such a good idea for overall product longevity.

And I did leave in a last minute clause there, the DM always has the right to do as he/she sees fit. There's no real argument that you can use against that rule. :nervous:

[Beidamon]

The irony is the very item you seek to destroy is the item that will keep itself from being destroyed hehe. Plus even if you do get through the SR there is still the fact the item will get a save ;)

Besides, if it wasn't for that item I wouldnt be able to do anything, any caster would be able to take me out with a few spells and I would go from being overpowered to horribly underpowered.

[Dust]

I don't mind Beid's spell-resistance, just as long as I don't have to face him :cool:

Besides, the more he ennoys Druid, the more Druid is going to go after him. I want to fight Larloch, the Lords of Darkness arch-lich. He can kill Beid while I cast my blenderspell at his feet. Then Larloch is dead, and it's treasure and experience points for all! LOL

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Biedamon, I hate to break it to you but nobody's invulnerable. :evil:

Even if you make it so that you have complete immunity to magic, elements, and physical damage, I'm sure that your character has some roleplaying flaw. If the character doesn't, I'd feel sorry for him/her/it. Not even the gods are perfect. Maybe they found out that it's boring to be so perfect. :evolved:

How's a 17th level half-celestrial monk underpowered? I wouldn't call being immune to acid, cold, disease, and electricty, plus spell-like abilities, and the powers of a 17th level monk as "underpowered". You aren't really supposed to be able to move mountains by yourself, that's what teamwork is for. LOL

[LeeCHeSSS]

Sounds like a simple kobold with a few decent rogue levels needs to do some pickpocketing then...

[LeeCHeSSS]

Sounds like a simple kobold with a few decent rogue levels needs to do some pickpocketing then...

[LeeCHeSSS]

Sounds like a simple kobold with a few decent rogue levels needs to do some pickpocketing then...

[TheDruid20]

Don't worry all I have some bad news to break to him... alot of his items cost alot more then he thinks, the ELH specificly stats a con and a str bonus are NOT simaliar hence cost alot more.... Plus there are a few tips for DMs on how to get rid of the groups magic:-)

[Beidamon]

Luckly for me all those extra costs are covered in the "Mithral Golem Act" Of 2002, under the "Mithral Golem Clause" Subsection II. ;)

Lee, thats why I have insane spot, those kobalds wont get anywhere near me. Its also near impossible to pickpocket something a person is wearing off them, there going to easily notice someone trying to take it.

[TheDruid20]

Ahh yes but the glory of the ELH is there are so many things without saves.....

[Beidamon]

Thats why I have SR as well, if something doesn't allow a save I can still use my SR, and in the same way if something doesn't allow SR I can still use my saves. And if something doesn't allow either? Then its broken and shouldnt of been allowed in the book.

[TheDruid20]

at 21+ lots of things are broken, they need to be put the fear of god into you. The thing isn't magical so SR doesn't apply.

[TheDruid20]

OK I need one more victim for the second group of walking dead.... Who is game. As you can see if you look, you can do lots of fun things like play a dragon....

[Dust]

I might be willing to play a second character :cool: If you're strapped for dudes, I'll do it. What character classes do you have?

[SponkleofInfini]

Damn, Dust got here first. I would be willing to play also, I have a 20th level Psion already made but that dragon sounds awfully tempting.

[Beidamon]

Ill'll play anouther charecter as well, you can have two games with the same people, twice the game, twice the hair loss for the DM :)

Wouldnt mind giving my Wizard7/Thayan Wizard10/Archmage3 a try, DC 49 or die, +35 to overcome SR :)

[Skreem]

That is of course, unless you'd all be willing to let me in? :)

Don't have anything made, but I'll start twinking somethi...errr making something up tonight!

((However, don't have Epic handbook, and at this time not planning on picking it up for awhile))