Gladiator Tournament II - Rules Preview & Discussion

[SlagMortar]

Under the paralyzed condition:

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless), but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning). A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

That it says a winged create can't flap its wings and falls implies a non-winged character does not fall. Since paralyzed causes helplessness, I would think a helpless but not paralyzed character would be able to do at least as much.

[Black Plauge]

Good point. There's still the issue of whether or not Brunhilda can fly around in her current condition (now isn't that a funny mental image) but at least I can resolve this round's actions.

[SlagMortar]

Not that I mind, but Rakesh gained back his 18 hitpoints again. He should have 78 hit points.

[Boomlaor]

2 natural 1s against a bound and helpless opponent? Gork wants his other dice back.

[Tashalar]

Good point. There's still the issue of whether or not Brunhilda can fly around in her current condition (now isn't that a funny mental image) but at least I can resolve this round's actions.
I think she'd be able to fly as she mentally commands the spell. I agree with Slag that helpless from a hog-tie should not be worse than paralyzed - actually it should not be as bad even. If you are paralyzed, you cannot move at all. If someone is hog-tied, s/he can try to escape and do whatever is possible in her hog-tied state. Flying would be one thing in my opinion.

So, even the Rules of the Game section even states that tripping isn't allowed by RAW. It would be a good optional rule, but it isn't RAW.
Just to summarize the end results of the tripping discusson - tripping in a grapple is not possible, right? Not even in the manner that the Rules of the Game section describes?

And concerning grappling... we'll stay with the BAB + str + size + special grappling mods. Including everything else makes less sense imo. ;)

[Lune]

I agree that she could still fly. In fact, I could see her looking for advantage by still being able to do so. I could think of several scenarios that could benefit her greatly just by positioning.

Also...not that I am trying to give unfair advice to a player (not that I think I have much to fear about such a thing anyway as both gladiators are controlled by the same player), but if his opponent is helpless then wouldn't it be more effective to simply coup de grace them? It might not be the flashiest thing, but then again...neither is kicking a helpless gladiator repeatedly in the ribs until they stop twitching.

[Tashalar]

Agreed - coup de grace would be fine. But that's a full round action and Gork won't get that with Brunhilda flying away the whole time.

Wouldn't he get an AoO when she flies away from him though? He could just hold onto her foot and let her pull at him... it's a funny 'flying situation' regardless. ;)

[Lune]

Uhm...why wouldn't he get a full round action? It isn't like he is using a move action, she is. And as long as he is grappled to her then he will move with her regardless of where she goes, right? Unless I misunderstand the use of manacles that Gork is doing that is?... Eitehr way she only 5' stepped away, he could still keep 5' stepping with her and get full round actions. And if she does anything but a withdrawal action (a losing battle of attrition) then he could still at least attack her every turn without her being able to attack back.

[Tashalar]

Oh, I didn't remember what Boom posted correctly. I thought Brunhilda was moving away at full speed - but you are right, she is only taking a 5' flighty-step. In that case a coup de grace might work. Although I am not sure about the rules on just knocking someone out.

But I think Gork is not grappling Brunhilda anymore, he is attacking with his newly drawn weapons.


By the way... I am thoroughly enjoying the overall action in the tournament. Three battles taking place and all three have seen and will see action. Soon this round will be over I think. :)

On a sidenote... as everyone has repeated over and over: I am not only enjoying the matches, I am also learning quite a lot. Too bad I see my tactical mistakes only when it is too late. Last round for example - Spikey's last attack should have been an unarmed attack targeting the last image to make sure that that is gone. Now there's an image left which means essentially a 50% miss chance. :tsk:

Other than that... I thought it was quite cool to not have any weapons as a gladiator at the beginning. I had money left over, so Spikey got the kama - and I am really glad I got him that. Too bad I didn't give him a sack full of shurikens and/or other ranged weapons as well.

Too bad also that I did not know how to allocate skill points correctly or his tumble and perform skills would be even higher - same goes for Coravel. Ah well. ;)

[Lune]

Wait a tic, I thought we couldn't make purchases after the start of the tournament. Maybe I am missing what you mean though.

Also, I think it would be cool in a future tourny if all gladiators started with essentially nothing (or very little) and had to work their way up to gain any kind of equipment. Its a spiffy concept, anyway.

[Tashalar]

Wait a tic, I thought we couldn't make purchases after the start of the tournament. Maybe I am missing what you mean though. You are. :)

I meant that it would have been good to buy those in the first place. Now Spikey does not have any ranged weapons which... well... you know what I mean. As shurikens count as amunition (I checked that a few days back), Spikey could use greater flurry to attack 6 times in a row with them. Not a lot of base damage, but it adds up I'd say. And definitely a good thing against images. Okay, I'll stop whining now. ;)

Also, I think it would be cool in a future tourny if all gladiators started with essentially nothing (or very little) and had to work their way up to gain any kind of equipment. Its a spiffy concept, anyway.I absolutely agree that it's a spiffy concept. No idea how it could be implemented to be fair and all, but if that could be done... that would be neat. The current rules rock as well though - a lot of effort must've gone into them 'over the years'.

[Lune]

Other than that... I thought it was quite cool to not have any weapons as a gladiator at the beginning.
Thats the part I didn't understand.

Also, I am envisioning something akin to the Core Coliseum (which you can't see right now *shakes fist at 4th edition announcement*) over on WotC's site. But with more allowable content. So it would end up being a Core + complete series + races series Coliseum. Heh.

[Tashalar]

Thats the part I didn't understand.
Ah... well, Spikey being a grappler and a monk means that he does not need weapons. So I thought it would be cool not to give him any. I decided against that and gave him the kama before he was approved, but I should have given him ranged weapons as well.

I'll check out that Core Coliseum when the site is back up. :)

[Lune]

Ah, understand now. Yeah, I have a friend that was playing in the CoCo before. Sounds mildly entertaining if not time consuming and overwhelming.

[Tashalar]

Hm... too bad I did not hit the image in this case.

Really bad rolls altogether this round. :?
Edit: Anyone have some spare dice?

At least the crowd is going to be mightily impressed by his awesome jump. ;)

[SlagMortar]

Wow, that was a tough round of rolls. Especially the d8s. You should definitely get some new ones. It reminds me of a time when someone had a d8 that had 1-4 printed on it twice each. It took them awhile to figure out why it was always rolling so low. At least I think it was a d8.

[Tashalar]

BP - Boom rolled to natural ones on the attack rolls... they would not hit, would they?


Wow, that was a tough round of rolls. Especially the d8s. You should definitely get some new ones. It reminds me of a time when someone had a d8 that had 1-4 printed on it twice each. It took them awhile to figure out why it was always rolling so low. At least I think it was a d8.That is just... evil. ;)

I could imagine a DM who hands out some spare dice to players when they forget theirs. Ouch.

In my case the d8s did not really matter in the end. Sadly, the whole set of rolls did not fit well together. Spikey does not hit the image but then totally fails to hit Rakesh. Ah well. :)

Edit: BP - the DC to escape the manacles is 28. The manacles are non-magical, but they are masterwork which is the condition for the raise from 26 to 28 (98% sure).

[Black Plauge]

Damn. Missed the ones.

And for some reason I thought that Gork's non-magical manacles were normal ones, not masterwork. I see however, that I am wrong.

[Tashalar]

BP - in the rules section on crowd attitude you posted that you'd consider actions to grant a crowd bonus other than those listed.

I think that the dimension door + attack trick by Foom warrants an increase of the crowd score. It's a special move/maneuver plus it has a very obvious visual effect. What do you think? :)

[Black Plauge]

Yeah, I see that. I'll make some adjustments.

[Tashalar]

Astral Construct
Menu Options: Great Cleave, Reach (+5 ft reach), Improved Brawn (+3 melee damage)Oi! What an unpleasant surprise! Well, it did not matter in this case...
Judging from what just happened - you'll reveal the abilities of the constructs as soon as they act the first time?

Also... would Rakesh not also be at the edge of its reach? Not sure about that really as I am confused about the reach rules concerning threatening squares 'upwards'.

Edit: Oh, and Spikey's crowd attitude should now be +15. :)

[Black Plauge]

Judging from what just happened - you'll reveal the abilities of the constructs as soon as they act the first time?
Reveal them? Hell, I don't even figure out what they are until it becomes important (a character moves through the area they potentially threaten).

Rakesh is outside of the construct's reach because he is 25 feet up. A large creature normally has a 16' vertical reach, but with the reach ability that is extended by 5' to 21'. The construct would need to make a 4' vertical jump to reach Rakesh.

[Tashalar]

Reveal them? Hell, I don't even figure out what they are until it becomes important (a character moves through the area they potentially threaten).
Fair enough. :)

Nice move, Slag... chances are not too high that Spikey falls, but if he does, that might even count as tripping a foe. Plus, he'd be prone. He would not like that at all. I can already see Rakesh zapping over to his belovèd chain. ;)

[Boomlaor]

Wait, what? Why did Gork lose crowd attitude? He didn't in an earlier match when he briefly beat up a hogtied Foom.

[LuneMoonshadow]

"Gladiator rolls natural 1 on attack roll — Attitude towards gladiator worsens 2 steps" x2

[SlagMortar]

Nice move, Slag... chances are not too high that Spikey falls, but if he does, that might even count as tripping a foe. Plus, he'd be prone. He would not like that at all. I can already see Rakesh zapping over to his belovèd chain. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20wink.gif
Thanks. :) I'll settle for a failed balance check and not being allowed to move so the construct gets a couple extra body blows in to soften Spikey up. ;)

A Cheer for each Gork and Brunhilda. Thanks for treating us to a good show Boomlaor. :)

[Darius]

BP- The haste effect lasts for five rounds.

Edit: Alos, BP, when you say that Foom pinpoints the crowd, would you please indicate which square it is that he is pinpointed in, even if he later moves? Thanks.

[Boomlaor]

Bah. I need to quit questioning things 'till my reading comprehension improves.

[Tashalar]

Bah. I need to quit questioning things 'till my reading comprehension improves.Well, that was really tough luck... rolling two natural ones. I mean... you rolled so many natural twenties before, maybe it was just to make up for that, eh? ;)

Edit: Alos, BP, when you say that Foom pinpoints the crowd, would you please indicate which square it is that he is pinpointed in, even if he later moves?Nice one, Darius. I love it! :)

I'll settle for a failed balance check and not being allowed to move so the construct gets a couple extra body blows in to soften Spikey up.Most certainly vetoed. :roll:

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsAll.html#balance) check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).
Okay, I needed a little while to understand how this works. I think I've got it now.
When Rakesh casts the spell, Spikey has to make a Reflex save - if he fails, he falls. On Spikey's turn he has to make a Balance check to move - if he fails it, he cannot move (he cannot fail it by 5 or more as his balance mod is +5 - +2synergy +3 Dex). If he fails to move, then he has to make another Reflex save on Rakesh's turn or fall.
Maybe I'll go ahead later and post the save as well as a balance check to see if Spikey can act normally. I did ask BP if one can jump out of the area without having to make a balance check - I bolded the area that seemed relevant to me. If jumping is possible, Spikey would do that. Obviously. :)

[SlagMortar]

When Rakesh casts the spell, Spikey has to make a Reflex save - if he fails, he falls. On Spikey's turn he has to make a Balance check to move - if he fails it, he cannot move (he cannot fail it by 5 or more as his balance mod is +5 - +2synergy +3 Dex). If he fails to move, then he has to make another Reflex save on Rakesh's turn or fall.
I think that's right.
I did ask BP if one can jump out of the area without having to make a balance check - I bolded the area that seemed relevant to me.
To me, if you are in the area then you must "move within" the area to get out of it even if that move is used to jump out of the area. It makes sense to me that way since in real life it takes at least as much balance to jump off of an ice patch to the edge as it would to walk across the ice.

[Tashalar]

To me, if you are in the area then you must "move within" the area to get out of it even if that move is used to jump out of the area. It makes sense to me that way since in real life it takes at least as much balance to jump off of an ice patch to the edge as it would to walk across the ice.
Although I tend to agree with you, I could see someone like Spikey making a huge jump just out of the greased area. As long as there very little horizontal movement in the jump, it might work much better than normal movement.

Rules-wise, it states walk and not move. Jumping is a form of movement but not a form of walking. I'm still busy (1,5 more days to go and I'm done!!!), but I'll post a save and a balance check later unless BP beats me to it. I'll post the balance check on condition that it is disregarded should jumping not need a check. ;)

[SlagMortar]

Rules-wise, it states walk and not move
Hmm. Good point. Where did I put those reading glasses. Ah-ha! My excuse is that it's morning here. You didn't just wake up. ;)

[Tashalar]

Nope, I've been awake like... like... *checks* 8,5 hours. And I've been working for approx. 6.

Hm... right now I cannot seem to concentrate. *sigh*

Well, I'll put up a save and a balance check just to know if the discussion has some more time or we need to have a decision soon. ;)

[Black Plauge]

I'll make sure to note pinpointed locations on the map, even when characters move.


As for jumping out of the grease, that won't negate the need for the balance check.

[Tashalar]

Ah well. I'll roll with it. I mean... Spikey will roll with it. Or rather... stay put with it. Grrrrr.

Where is that d20 from the first 'action round'?


Okay... I'll get an action up later. Although Spikey cannot move, he can still do a move action and a standard action, right? I'll get to it soon.

[SlagMortar]

Wow, the dice gods are seriously punishing Spikey for the luck in that initial flurry.

[Tashalar]

Wow, the dice gods are seriously punishing Spikey for the luck in that initial flurry.
Yes... well, I guess I forgot to say my prayers in all the fuss here. Ah well... I'll pray to them again starting Sunday. ;)

Concerning this round - I already have a nice idea what to do. Think of movement by changing size. At least the construct won't get the chance to damage him. :ditsy:

[Black Plauge]

You lose the move action with the jump attempt, but you would still have a standard action.

[Tashalar]

Well, then I can post what I have in mind quickly to keep this match rollin'. :)

[SlagMortar]

Note: This does not add images to the one Rakesh already had. While both spells remain in effect, only the one with the higher number of images must be dealt with when attacking Rakesh.
I expected it to completely replace the first mirror image. Reading through the combining magical effect rules, I think you are right that both stay active, but the number of images does not stack. I don't like that rule as I think it makes overlapping mirror images too good.

Does that mean Rakesh could spend the first 8 rounds of the match casting mirror images and his opponent would always have to deal with whatever spell had the most images active? Yuck. I'll try to keep overlapping mirror images to a minimum. At least it is dismissable. I might have Rakesh dismiss the first one if I get the chance.

[Lune]

Hrm...that is kinda cheaty. Normally one might have to worry about dispells, but in a tourny like this it is, IMO, too powerful. But it is RAW, I suppose. *shrug*

[Black Plauge]

Dispel magic is certainly legal by the tourney rules (3rd level spell, available to 5th level casters). The fact that no one is playing a character with that tactic available (either through natural ability or items) is your guys' fault. :P

Also, I was kind of surprised when I double check the SRD rules on stacking spells. I though I had remembered a rule where a second casting of the same spell essentially replaced the initial casting, but after double checking the rules, I see that while that is true for spells which have a static effect and can't be discharged, that line of thinking is simply the result of how spells stack, not an actual rule on how to stack spells.

[Tashalar]

Well, that is just 'ouch'. No matter. Time to deal with it. :paranoid:

Not saying I'll get a post up right immediately, but I will post his balance check for the round (I know that this forces Spikey to move this round. But he intends to in any case.). Now with a +6 modifier. Let's see if Spikey's luck holds. ;)

Edit: One more thing... there's still the trick of closing one's eyes. As I see that as a free action, closing the eyes, attacking and then reopening them should work perfectly with only a 50% miss chance. Despite a trillion potential images.:evil:

[Lune]

Most characters that would have access to 3rd level spells would be gimping themselves by soaking 5 levels into a casting class for a tournament like this. So its your fault, BP. :P

Also, that last setence didn't make a lotta sense. But I still agree with whatcha mean...I think. ;)

[Black Plauge]

Not saying I'll get a post up right immediately, but I will post his balance check for the round (I know that this forces Spikey to move this round. But he intends to in any case.). Now with a +6 modifier. Let's see if Spikey's luck holds.
In that case I'll wait for your full action.

Most characters that would have access to 3rd level spells would be gimping themselves by soaking 5 levels into a casting class for a tournament like this. So its your fault, BP.
Items my man. Items.

[Tashalar]

Okay, I'll get right on it...

It's not like I've got something special in mind or anything so I might as well. :)

[Tashalar]

Spikey's crowd score should be +15.

And sadly he misses +16 by one. Hm... maybe I am preserving Spikey's luck for later?

Edit: Why use a stupid kama when there's a nifty spiked chain lying about? :roll:

[Lune]

Well, items are...uhm. Hrm, items are...items are your fault too! Dang, your right. And it prolly woulda been fairly effective seeing the typical buffs that characters are running around with in the tourney. Its still cool, I think we gots a good mix here.

[Tashalar]

Well, items are...uhm. Hrm, items are...items are your fault too! Dang, your right. And it prolly woulda been fairly effective seeing the typical buffs that characters are running around with in the tourney. Its still cool, I think we gots a good mix here.
Oh, we definitely have a nice mix. :)


Concerning items and dispels... well, most of the gladiators that have spell caster levels are level 8 casters. Normal items with a dispel ability would count as level 5 casters (lowest possible level). As we can take items only 'by the book', is there really something out there that would work efficiently? CL5 vs. CL8 is only a 34% chance and uses a standard action...

Hm... there are weapons of dispelling though. Ah well, next tournament then. In two years or so. ;)

[SlagMortar]

Why use a stupid kama when there's a nifty spiked chain lying about? http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20cheeky.gif
I thought you might do that. At least you can't use it in a flurry. ;)

[Tashalar]

I thought you might do that. At least you can't use it in a flurry.
Hm... I agree that I really have to think about what to do with it. But hey!
Spikey's got reach now! Beware! :calm:

[Tashalar]

A cheer for Darius to boldly venture where no man has ventured before... and returned alive. ;)

As a little bonus: attack is at +21 (haste).

[Lune]

At least there is a chance he could fail the tumble check. A very small chance but a chance nonetheless.

[Tashalar]

There is? I just checked and Foom has a tumble score of +25 according to his sheet. Since there are not automatic failures on a natural one for skill uses, he should be fine.

Similar to the fight against Gork it will all boil down to whether he hits Moniker and if Moniker is stunned or not. If Moniker isn't stunned, then there will be some 'return damage' to be had I bet. ;)

[Lune]

There are 2 foes.
And the stun doesn't last forever. ;)

[Linklegacy77]

"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy."

That suggests that she should be unable to move at all.

[Tashalar]

Spikey's crowd attitude should be +15.

Then... the boots. I'd ask for some leniency on the following:
At one point I stated that they would stay active unless I state otherwise.
The round when Spikey jump-attacked I wanted to turn them off but forgot to state it, edited it in and then out again as I had used it in the attack.
I did not state that he would turn them off again afterwards, I forgot but I did want them to be turned off.

To underline this: For the actions that Spikey made he had no need of the extra attacks or the attack bonus. Furthermore, I rolled his Reflex normally (+15) instead of the +16 it would be with haste the round after the jump-attack.

Either way - the posted duration for the haste 'usage' of Spikey's boots is off.

[Darius]

BP- is there a reason Foom's crowd attitude went from 3.25 to 2.25?

[Tashalar]

BP- is there a reason Foom's crowd attitude went from 3.25 to 2.25?
Nope, should be 3,25. It has to do with BP's method of updating the character statistics via copy and paste I think. It happens at times, but as it is easy to catch, nothing to worry about. :)

[Chris Chandler]

Hey, Tash - you aren't fooling anyone now, you know. I hope you didn't have to ask for an extension on your thesis!

Oh, and, good job for being bold with Foom, Darius, no matter the outcome.

[Lune]

Foom's tumble check should not have been automatic. There were 2 foes. That would increase his tumble check. If he rolls a 1 he still would fail.

Also, the Moniker's AC should be higher as he was fighting defensively.

[Darius]

Lune- I thought that additional foes only added +2 to the DC, making the DC 17 as opposed to 15. Foom's tumble check would still be high enough to automatically beat the DC.

Edit: Fighting defensively would only increase Moniker's AC by 2, meaning Foom would still hit him.

Edit 2: Never mind, Moniker has more than five ranks in Tumble, making his AC 3 higher or 28, and a miss for Foom. Crap.

[Lune]

Sorry.

15
Tumble (http://www.heroworkshop.co.uk/ch16s03.html#CombinedSkills318) at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player's choice of order in case of a tie).
Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble (http://www.heroworkshop.co.uk/ch16s03.html#CombinedSkills318) DC.
25
Tumble (http://www.heroworkshop.co.uk/ch16s03.html#CombinedSkills318) at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy.
Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble (http://www.heroworkshop.co.uk/ch16s03.html#CombinedSkills318) DC.

Hrm, I guess I figured you would be going for the DC25 check. Might be worthwhile for gladiators to specify which they are going for in the future rather than making BP have to make an assumption. Because if it were the latter then you would still have to make the roll as you would fail on a 1.

I'll wait for this to all resolve before I post actions for this round.

[Darius]

No part of the movement I declared for Foom had him going through any square occupied by an opponent, so where is the confusion? It was a straight line to Moniker, and Foom did not pass through Moniker's square.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[Black Plauge]

I agree with Darius here. This case was pretty clear. His move pretty clearly didn't involve going through the space of another character. The DC 25 option only applies when going through the actual squares the opponent occupies (not just those they threaten).

Also, a DC 25 check is automatic for a character with a +25 modifier in a skill. Indeed, it is automatic for a character with a +24 modifier in that skill.

Finally, I'm not sure that the Dragonne was capable of taking AoOs at the time anyway. Confused creatures have funny rules about who they can take AoOs against and it isn't clear to me that Foom was a permisable target at the time.


Oh, and I'm sorry about not updating today. I got caught up in a bunch of work and couldn't get around to it. I'm planning on coming in a bit early tomorrow so that doesn't happen again.

[Tashalar]

One should specify if one is going half movement or full movement (at a +10 to the DC) for a tumble. At full movement and with two foes, the DC would have been 27 and therefore we'd have the situation that Lune described.

Okay, I'll do an early morning post now. Almost two in the morning. *blinks*


And... thanks, Chris! I did get my thesis done! Friday, Saturday and half of Sunday were really busy though. Formatting and all that stuff really... well, sucks. But now I'm done and... and... well, I've got two exams left. I'll be done with my studies this year, November or December then.

Let's see if Spikey can continue to give Rakesh a hard time now. :)

[Darius]

Tash- Foom moved all of 15'. He has a base speed of 80'. I didn't realize I would have to be that specific if he was going full or half speed.

[Tashalar]

Well, I don't think one should have to either. It's obvious that Mr. Purple Pants would've used half movement to get there. I do see right now that I posted should specify though... It's 2 in the morning right now, sorry 'bout that. I'd say that movement is normally half and that BP just acts on that. If half movement does not suffice to get there, then he could automatically have the gladiator move at normal speed. Or if the player wants his gladiator to move full speed, he can just post it. :)

Okay, definitely heading to bed now. :bored:

[Lune]

No need to get all bent outta shape about it. I made a simple mistake in the reading of the tumble rules. I was thinking that the DC should have been 25 and modifiied by 2 because of the Dragonne being nearby. The difference that I read in the two different DCs was that the latter gave the ability (if you failed) to stop before you provoked an AoO, while the first made you continue regardless of AoOs. I missed the part about actually passing through an occupied square.

I do think that the beast threatens, and that is all that matters as far as giving a +2 to the check.

However, Darius hit the nail on the head - Moniker's AC should have been 3 higher, thus the attack would have missed.

[Black Plauge]

However, Darius hit the nail on the head - Moniker's AC should have been 3 higher, thus the attack would have missed.
Actually, while I did forget about the AC bonus, I think his AC should have only been 2 higher (and thus the attack still hits). The penalty for fighting defensively is -4 and you only specified a penalty of -2 in your post. Since Moniker does have Combat Expertise, I figured that it was simply a minor error in the name of the penalty (something I do all the time), and that you were taking a -2 to hit for +2 to AC exchange using Combat Expertise (the AC bonus from Combat Expertise does not change with ranks in tumble).

[SlagMortar]

Combat expertise can not be used with a ranged attack, so it either has to be fighting defensively or nothing. Since Lune specified fighting defensively, I think Moniker should get credit for it.

[Lune]

*nod* I had the penalty wrong. People make mistakes...as illustrated in this thread. ;) You also wrote that he was fighting defensively. Also, Moniker's attack still would have missed either way so it doesn't change anything there, but does change whether he would be hit or not.

By the way, BP...how did the conferences go?

[Black Plauge]

Combat expertise can not be used with a ranged attack, so it either has to be fighting defensively or nothing. Since Lune specified fighting defensively, I think Moniker should get credit for it.
Bah! Of course. I forgot about that. Looks like I have some significant adjustments to do.

[Black Plauge]

Or maybe not. Moniker might have a +3 from fighting defensively, but he also is fatigued, meaning his dex mod to AC is 1 lower than normal. As a result his AC is 27, which does get hit.

So, am I missing anything else before I move that match forward?

By the way, BP...how did the conferences go?
Tiring as all get out, but I was able to do a lot of talking and networking. Don't think I've got anything out of them that will work into my research, but considering that I've already got plenty to do there, that isn't a bad thing.

[Lune]

Oh cripes, missed the fatigued thing. Gosh, that changes a lot actually...

[SlagMortar]

Leave the bad rhymes to Rakesh please.
I missed that earlier. I see it's catching. ;)

And, Rakesh should have 2/0/6 spells remaining.

[Darius]

So, am I missing anything else before I move that match forward?



I hope it can move forward. I just can't wait to see how bad the dice treat me with this set of attacks. Just to be sure though, Moniker's AC is 24 for this round, right?

[Lune]

Yeah...I guess it should be cause of the fatigue. Lame. Dragonnes = food from now on.

[Black Plauge]

And, Rakesh should have 2/0/6 spells remaining.

Might help if I actually copied the right stuff into that post. If you were paying attention you might have noted that there wasn't any action resolution posted.

[SlagMortar]

I did notice that, but I thought the action might have been straight forward enough that you didn't bother.

Just to be sure though, Moniker's AC is 24 for this round, right?
BP ruled Rakesh would continue to gain the combat expertise bonus after spending a round stunned because he had not yet had another "action". It looks like the fighting defensively indicates it lasts for the "round" so I think it would have expired.

So to get this straight, if someone was using combat expertise + fighting defensively and was stunned, the bonus/penalty from combat expertise would still be in effect after the stun wears off, but the bonus/penalty from fighting defensively would no longer be in effect?

I can't say I like that, and I can't say I think that was the intended interpretation.

[Black Plauge]

So to get this straight, if someone was using combat expertise + fighting defensively and was stunned, the bonus/penalty from combat expertise would still be in effect after the stun wears off, but the bonus/penalty from fighting defensively would no longer be in effect?
That is the way the rules read.

I can't say I like that, and I can't say I think that was the intended interpretation.
Maybe, but that is RAW.

[Boomlaor]

Foom has blindfighting. He still needs to make concealment rolls though, it just lets him reroll once if he misses due to concealment. Isn't that how it works? I may be remembering wrong.

[Black Plauge]

Doh! Give me some time to fix.

Edit: There, fixed it. Only one concealment miss, but it did get rid of some of the damage.

[Darius]

Is it possible to tell if Lune dropped anything in the square as a result of being stunned?

[Black Plauge]

Forgot about that.

Yes, Moniker did drop is spiked chain as a result of the first stunning. I'll edit the map to show it's location on the next update. Foom is currently standing on it.

Edit: Slight correction: Foom can tell, the audience cannot.

[Tashalar]

Dragonnes = food from now on.Hehe... I like that. IC actions have IC consequences. Too bad for the dragonne.
What I also find funny is how the dragonne is running in opposite directions every round. First it strains on the chain to get to Foom, the next instant it runs away from Foom. :D

Btw - I'd still like the issue of Spikey's haste rounds (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275864&postcount=2057) to be addressed. :)

[Black Plauge]

Btw - I'd still like the issue of Spikey's haste rounds to be addressed.
You have to turn the boots off. Thus, regardless of whether you need the bonuses or not, you need to specify that you are turning them off. I listed them as deactivated the first time you came out and said that they were off.

[Tashalar]

So to get this straight, if someone was using combat expertise + fighting defensively and was stunned, the bonus/penalty from combat expertise would still be in effect after the stun wears off, but the bonus/penalty from fighting defensively would no longer be in effect?

I can't say I like that, and I can't say I think that was the intended interpretation.
Oh, we could agree that all bonuses and penalties from fighting defensively and CE are no longer in effect after a round. I'd have no problem with that. :roll:

Hrhm... too tired to think up anything right now. Hustle and attack? Against AC 40? Sounds like a bad idea to me at the moment. Grapple isn't impeded at all and then there are plenty of Rakesh's to deal with as well.

Btw - what I forgot to ask: How would a disarm attack by Rakesh have been dealt with considering the concealment and there not being any attack roll involved? How is the disarm roll affected with all the images around? Is there an image check roll? What if he tries to 'disarm' an image - it is not an attack so does it get a counter roll? Does it vanish? What would be the outcome except being tripped by Rakesh's AoO in the progress?

[SlagMortar]

Oh, we could agree that all bonuses and penalties from fighting defensively and CE are no longer in effect after a round. I'd have no problem with that. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20cheeky.gif
I'd have no problem with that, though I realize it would have likely changed Spikey's actions earlier. I think that was how the author intended it to work, but I didn't argue for it at the time since it was in Rakesh's favor and you didn't argue about it either. Also, I don't have a RAW argument for it, other than that there are other places (such as the dodge feat) where it seems to use "action" to mean turn in the initiative order.
Hrhm... too tired to think up anything right now.
<smack>Is it going to look better in the morning? :evil: </smack>

[Tashalar]

I think that was how the author intended it to work, but I didn't argue for it at the time since it was in Rakesh's favor and you didn't argue about it either.
Oh, I didn't even think about what way it was intented back then... I still thought that the grapple check would be penalized by 5 for taking CE for 5 - which would have been good for the grapple. If I had known that at the time...

Is it going to look better in the morning?
Hehe... not really.

Well, Spikey's just looking for an advantage. I'm not sure he's found it yet, but you really can't blame him for trying. He is, after all, facing a whole flock of Rakesh's.
That sums it up nicely, BP.
For that reason, because I don't have feedback yet on how disarms would be treated, because I'll leave in half an hour to stay at my gf's house without internet access and because I need to post today, Spikey won't do anything grand this round.

I'll try to get a grasp of limits and possibilities over the course of the weekend though. :)

[Black Plauge]

How would a disarm attack by Rakesh have been dealt with considering the concealment and there not being any attack roll involved?
Disarm attacks involve opposed attack rolls, so I'm not sure what you mean.

How is the disarm roll affected with all the images around? Is there an image check roll? What if he tries to 'disarm' an image - it is not an attack so does it get a counter roll? Does it vanish? What would be the outcome except being tripped by Rakesh's AoO in the progress?
I check for target image and then conduct the disarm check as normal. If you target an image, then a successful disarm causes the image to disappear.

[Darius]

Not that there is much hope of this, but you didn't forget to subtract from the Cloud's attack rolls due to his being fatigued, did you?

[Black Plauge]

Nope. Got that.

[SlagMortar]

It looks like Foom did not lose his Dex bonus, which I think is right because Foom has blindfight and it was a melee attack. Then, I don't think Cloud should have gotten to sneak attack.

[Black Plauge]

That is correct. I'll go adjust the damage.

[Darius]

Here's a question- if the Cloud is raging, how is it that he was able to move silently?



A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#moraleModifier) on Will saves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#will), but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm), Escape Artist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/escapeArtist.htm), Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm), and Ride (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm)), the Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm) skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#commandWord), a spell trigger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger) (such as a wand), or spell completion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion) (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise), item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued) (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) or run (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run)) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#tirelessRage)).

[Black Plauge]

Oh. Whoops. I didn't realize that Dex based skills were on the list of prohibits. No Move Silently checks for him.

[Boomlaor]

Probably a typo, but Moniker should have 89 hp, not 99 hp. He had 132 hp and was hit for 16, 16, and 11.

[Black Plauge]

No typo. You're forgetting his false life spell which gave him 10 temporary hp. The first 10 damage discharged that spell.

[Tashalar]

I check for target image and then conduct the disarm check as normal. If you target an image, then a successful disarm causes the image to disappear.Thanks, that was the info I was looking for. Largely moot now, but might be helpful again later. ;)

Okay, since I don't get the rules on underwater fighting entirely - how does fighting with a spiked chain underwater work? As it deals piercing damage, it seems as if it can be used normally. There's nothing to indicate that the benefit of reach is lost either.

Which... doesn't make any sense at all. The damage type is piercing but the way one wields it is that of a slashing weapon - swinging it in arcs. But no matter if it makes sense or not... if Spikey would move into the moat next to Rakesh, but swimming 5' above him, does Rakesh get an AoO and can he use his spiked chain to maximum efficiency? :)

Edit: Ah, this whole watery business would not make sense I guess. Spikey will do something else. But if anyone knows how the above is handled, please do post. I would like to know in any case. :)

[Lune]

Wow, missed this part in blind-fight:
That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible.
That certainly changes a lot.

However, I would like to point a few things out. First of all, I never said that I wanted to sneak when I 5' stepped as I knew he couldn't while raging. However, as that is SOP I can understand the mistake. If nothing else the check should get the normal distracted modifier, and IMO also the base DC of 5 for "A person in medium armor walking at a slow pace (10 ft./round) trying not to make any noise." (Moniker is trying to not make noise which isn't the same as actually moving silently, he is wearing medium armor and is moving less than 10ft/round.) He did still make the check, I see, even with the modifier listed. However, I thought it might be important to point out for the future.

And then there is this:
A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action).
Foom should not get to go before Moniker.

Sorry I'm getting to this a bit late after so much has transpired. Been busy again.

[Tashalar]

Foom should not get to go before Moniker.
That is the only thing I am sure about - as I am playing Spikey, I should know.

I was confused by this for a long time as well. It works like this:
Moniker is stunned. Initiative progresses, it is Moniker's turn. He cannot take any action as he is stunned. Initiative progresses and Moniker isn't stunned anymore, Foom's turn.

So... Foom does indeed get to go before Moniker.

I did not know about that part on blindfight either - I am very surprised. If I had researched appropriately, I'd have given Coravel blindfight and dropped the two barbarian levels for two more fighter levels.

I agree that the DC should be at least 5 though. Unless Moniker is frothing from the mouth, growling and all that. ;)

Edit: Yay for a grappled dire bear! :ditsy:
Edit No.2: Oh, and the one who booed Spikey can step up and say why! I'm just curious, honest. I won't hack your computer or anything... :evil:

[Lune]

That is not how it works. When you are stunned, you are stunned until your next turn. It spells it out right there. It says, "A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action)." Let me put names into that to make it more clear:
[If Moniker] fails this saving throw [he is] stunned for 1 round (until just before [Foom's] next action).

That clearly means that Moniker gets to go before Foom's next action.

[Tashalar]

That clearly means that Moniker gets to go before Foom's next action.
Yes, that is what I thought at first, too... and I thought - where's the big benefit of the feat then?

But you misread what I wrote - your quote is only about the stun effect. It says nothing about a change of initiative or anything. The 'just before' part was only put it to make it clear that the penalties for being stunned are not in effect any longer when it is Foom's turn again.

It was the same when Spikey stunned Rakesh - which is not meant as proof of the rule, just to show that it has been ruled this way all along. And I do think that's the way it's supposed to work as well.

[SlagMortar]

Edit: Ah, this whole watery business would not make sense I guess. Spikey will do something else. But if anyone knows how the above is handled, please do post. I would like to know in any case. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20happy.gif
I think you are right that RAW a spiked chain can be used just fine underwater. I agree that the rules there are broken. I wasn't planning on fighting in the water, since I don't think the rules cover it very well.
That clearly means that Moniker gets to go before Foom's next action.
I agree with Tashalar here for two reasons:
1. In order for a character to change initiative, the character has to either delay or ready an action. Neither of these can be done while stunned so the character's initiative is delayed.
2. Even if Moniker could delay, if Moniker took his action before Foom, then there would be some time between when Moniker was stunned and Foom's action so the stun would not have lasted until just before Foom's action.

Consider if Moniker casts wraithstrike, which lasts for 1 round just like stun. Moniker is still under the effect of wraithstrike during any attacks of opportunity. Would it be possible for another character to delay until just before Moniker's turn but after wraithstrike is expired? I'd say no.

[Tashalar]

Ah... I wanted to go ahead and post, but I better wait and see what the bear is up to...

This will be a critical update for the Moniker vs. Foom match. Either it's over or... it's not. :roll:

[Darius]

Tash- there have been quite a few "critical updates" during this match. I've just gotten very lucky in regards to how the dice have fallen.

[Tashalar]

Yeah, I do realize that. But they went by me when I slept. And none of them included the chance of the match being over like this one now.

And... yeah, Tymora is with Mr. Purple Pants. ;)

Edit:
On Rakesh's ACP: On his sheet it says -3 (-2 armor -1 shield), but it should be -2 as both items are masterwork.
His jump mod is listed as +22 (in the current post), but this should be reduced by 2 for the ACP. Climb +10 is correct. Swim +8 is also correct for double the ACP.
You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You also can’t use a shield while climbing.
Not sure if climbing out of the moat with the spiked chain is as easy as without it. I checked the Yarden vs. Spikey match and Spikey had to make a DC 15 climb check to get out of the moat (without anything in his hands).

Although... Rakesh might be able to simply fly. Hm.

[SlagMortar]

On Rakesh's ACP: On his sheet it says -3 (-2 armor -1 shield), but it should be -2 as both items are masterwork.
His jump mod is listed as +22 (in the current post), but this should be reduced by 2 for the ACP. Climb +10 is correct. Swim +8 is also correct for double the ACP.
Right on the ACP. I've been using -2.
The jump mod of +22 on his sheet does not include ACP, but also does not include the tumble synergy so it is right at +22.
Not sure if climbing out of the moat with the spiked chain is as easy as without it. I checked the Yarden vs. Spikey match and Spikey had to make a DC 15 climb check to get out of the moat (without anything in his hands).

Although... Rakesh might be able to simply fly. Hm.
Hmm. That's a good question. I wasn't sure what checks were needed to get out of the moat, or if flying was allowed or what, and I didn't realize both hands are needed to climb though that makes sense. If he needs to put the spiked chain away first, then he'll do that. I'll edit my post.

[Tashalar]

Quick question after an exchange of PMs between Slag and myself:
What exactly is the 'moat setup'?

Does it border on the arena just like a swimming pool? Is there a 1 ft. ledge? A 5 ft. drop?

[Darius]

BP- I think you might have messed up on the Cloud's non-lethal damage. On post 23 he has 54 non-lethal, then on post 25 he has 63. Shouldn't it still be just 54 non-lethal?

Also- I think you missed adjusting the Cloud's hitpoints based on the fact that he's raging. I think I calculated it at an extra 30 hitpoints, but you might want to check my math on that. The total hitpoints at this point should probably be 129.

Yes, I know I am not doing myself any favors with this.

[Tashalar]

Yes, I know I am not doing myself any favors with this.
Yeah, but that's the way to go!

If someone notices afterwards and all has to be replayed - that would be so much worse. :)

[Tashalar]

I checked the hps in the Moniker vs. Foom match and I get the exact same result as Darius.

Foom dealt 54 non-lethal damage and 43 lethal damage total. 10 are deducted from the lethal amount for the temporary hps leaving 33.

132 hp base +30 hps for raging = 162.
162 - 33 = 129 hps.
Plus, 54 non-lethal damage.

So... with the rage the match is not almost over as I thought it might be. :)

[Darius]

Yeah, somehow I don't see Foom dealing 75 points of damage in a round. I'll leave that to characters like Rakesh.

[Lune]

Aw, come on. The Cloud of Death can dish far more than that much out in a round quite easily...if he isn't stunned. ;)

By the way, I would like to be nominated for the most fatal oversight of the tournament. That oversight in blindsight is going to be a painful and costly one.

[Tashalar]

By the way, I would like to be nominated for the most fatal oversight of the tournament. That oversight in blindsight is going to be a painful and costly one.Yeah, you've earned the nomination for sure. Let's see if you can win it as well. I guess you will only win if you lose this match, so... you lose some, you win some. Or how does the saying go? :roll:

Aw, come on. The Cloud of Death can dish far more than that much out in a round quite easily...if he isn't stunned.I'm not going to get into the amount of damage that Spikey can deal when in huge size and using greater flurry... :cool:

Edit: If I read everything correctly, then Foom has a high chance of winning this match if he successfully stuns the Cloud this round.

[Darius]

Heh. Foom is quickly running out of stun attempts though. I'd say this match can still go either way and is rather far from decided. I am really looking forward to this next update.

[Tashalar]

Heh. Foom is quickly running out of stun attempts though. I'd say this match can still go either way and is rather far from decided. I am really looking forward to this next update.
Yeah, I'm really curious as well as to how this develops.

Same goes for Rakesh vs. Spikey although we don't have a comparable situation there. Still eager though. :)

[Darius]

Edit: If I read everything correctly, then Foom has a high chance of winning this match if he successfully stuns the Cloud this round.

That is a pretty big "if" right there. Still, I put Foom's chances at being a lot higher with being close to whatever it is he heard in the cloud as opposed to not. Especially what with Foom not having any ranged attack. That right there is going to be my fatal oversight.

[Chris Chandler]

That makes blind-fighting a very valuable feat, all of a sudden. Nice...

[Black Plauge]

Okay, sorry for not posting anything yesterday, but I wasn't online at all because of what I was doing.

Anyway, let's see if I can address things:

First the issue of stun. Darius has it right when he points out that a stunned character cannot do anything to adjust his initiative position, so despite the fact that the stun effects expire before the attacker's next turn, the stunned victim still loses a turn from the stun.

Second the issue of Rakesh getting out of the moat. It does take a climb check to get out and you do need both hands free to climb. Rakesh cannot fly out as, unlike a bird, he doesn't float on top of the water, which would allow his wings to flap unobstructed by the water.

Third, the issue of Moniker's hp. I'll fix that again. Maybe this time it will stay fixed.

Fourth, the issue of the moat edge. It is built largely like a swimming pool, giving it a very straight down drop off to full depth. The wall is made up of a combination of rough hewn stone and concrete.

Does that cover everything?

[Darius]

Yep- sounds good, except it was Tash that was making the stun argument. I just happen to agree (and benefit).

[SlagMortar]

Second the issue of Rakesh getting out of the moat. It does take a climb check to get out and you do need both hands free to climb.
Sounds fine. Rakesh will have to stow his spiked chain then. Now I'm even happier I decided to drop his other spiked chain on land. Stowing both would have been a pain, and I wouldn't have wanted to leave it in the water.
Rakesh cannot fly out as, unlike a bird, he doesn't float on top of the water, which would allow his wings to flap unobstructed by the water.
Fair enough. That's what I expected.
Fourth, the issue of the moat edge. It is built largely like a swimming pool, giving it a very straight down drop off to full depth. The wall is made up of a combination of rough hewn stone and concrete.

What brought up the question was that a DC 15 climb check is pretty tough for getting out of a swimming pool, so we thought maybe there was several feet between the surface and the arena floor that needed climbing. I'm fine leaving the rule like it is though and glossing over why it is so difficult to get out since we have already established that precedent.

[Lune]

Hrm...true, even without the ACP the DC15 check does seem a bit steep.

BTW, if I would have known about the other effects of having the blindfight feat then I wouldn't have kept my step within 5' of Foom. In fact, I wouldn't have even stayed within a full attack area of him. But such is the cost of an oversight, I suppose.

[Black Plauge]

What brought up the question was that a DC 15 climb check is pretty tough for getting out of a swimming pool, so we thought maybe there was several feet between the surface and the arena floor that needed climbing.
Unlike a modern swimming pool, however, the moat doesn't have a filtration system. As a result the surface you're trying to climb against is fairly slippery from algae growth. There is also to overhanging coping stone or gutter, just a simple corner and the algae thus, in some spots, actually can grow somewhat on the arena floor at the very edge (natural low spots in the stone where the water has a tendency to lap over).

If you've ever seen the condition of the water in a swimming pool at the end of winter before opening procedures get started, then you have an idea of what the water in the moat is like.

The DC 15 to climb out is the result of the following combinations of conditions:
Wall Surface: 15 (Any surface with adequate handholds and footholds (natural or artificial), such as a very rough natural rock surface or a tree, or an unknotted rope, or pulling yourself up when dangling by your hands.)
Slippery Surface: +5
Extra Bouyancy and leverage that you gain from being in the water: -5

[Lune]

Hrm. Good points. I concede the arguement.

[SlagMortar]

As a result the surface you're trying to climb against is fairly slippery from algae growth.
I hadn't considered that the surface would be particularly slippery (more slippery than the average pool). That's a good point. DC 15 is close enough.

[Tashalar]

Hey Slag - Rakesh can take a good look at how it works. The dire bear succeeds where Rakesh has failed. So far, admittedly. :P


BP - why did you decide to go for grapple with the bear instead of attacking with claws and bite and why does he get two grapple attacks instead of one or three? Not complaining - just curious how this works for monsters.

Darius - the dice continue to fall in Foom's favor. The stun did not function, but everything else more or less did. 7 concealment rolls and only one below 50? Wow! :eek:

[Darius]

Now I just need Foom to connect one (or two) more times. I think I'm making up for Foom's bad luck against Gork.

[SlagMortar]

Rakesh can take a good look at how it works. The dire bear succeeds where Rakesh has failed. So far, admittedly.
Rakesh is taking note, but I think he'll want to get a closer look. ;)

[Tashalar]

Now I just need Foom to connect one (or two) more times. I think I'm making up for Foom's bad luck against Gork.
Yeah, well... in that fight it really was 'to stun or to lose'... ;)

Rakesh is taking note, but I think he'll want to get a closer look.
I am sure of that! :nod:

[Tashalar]

Just checked the results of Spikey's last rolls... I did not even realize at first how bad they are!

But... they might very well be enough to do the trick. It's only a dire bear after all - not Rakesh. Good thing I used that... other d20 this time. Not my special one.

[Black Plauge]

BP - why did you decide to go for grapple with the bear instead of attacking with claws and bite and why does he get two grapple attacks instead of one or three? Not complaining - just curious how this works for monsters.
Grappling is a pretty good option for the Dire Bear with its +23 grapple modifier and Improved Grapple. Indeed, it's far better than trying to attack while grappled. As for the number of grapple checks, that functions purely off of BAB (like iteratives). The Dire Bear's BAB is +9 so it has two.

[Tashalar]

Grappling is a pretty good option for the Dire Bear with its +23 grapple modifier and Improved Grapple.
I agree that it makes sense for a monster with improved grab to actually continue to grapple when having grappled someone. The dire bear does not know that his +23 mod is not that good after all. ;)

So... if it goes by BAB, then the first grapple check is +23 and the second is +18. Good to know - thanks for the clarification.

[Lune]

Gosh it is a good thing that bear can't talk right now. Or else he might be able to cast his spells with verbal compon....its just easier to call it silly. ;)

[Tashalar]

Hehe... well, I think the rule does not even make sense. How is Spikey supposed to keep the bear from growling... anyone? Aren't jaw muscles the strongest muscles? ;)

Other than that... you never know... it might actually be a high level druid who has shape shifted into a dire bear... or... or... something.

[Lune]

Maybe he is just trying to hug you and express how much he likes you verbally. Didn't think of that, did you? Man...your so...cold hearted, Tashalar.
;)

[Black Plauge]

Jaw muscles are usually fairly strong, but only for closing, not opening. It shouldn't be a problem for him to hold the bear's jaw shut. That won't prevent growls, but it will prevent roars.

[Tashalar]

Jaw muscles are usually fairly strong, but only for closing, not opening. It shouldn't be a problem for him to hold the bear's jaw shut. That won't prevent growls, but it will prevent roars.
Aaaww... Spikey is SO cool. :cool:

That is... if he manages to pin the bear.


And Lune... Spikey would dance with the bear... but only when Rakesh is down and out. ;)

[Lune]

Ok, just checking: Foom should still be within the Cloud of Death, correct?

[Black Plauge]

He's on the edge. He's within the cloud, but knows which way is out.

[Tashalar]

Woah! There's lots of cloudy action!! Gotta go!

[Boomlaor]

I think Spikey intended to attempt to destroy the bear's chain after pinning it, not to damage it with grapple attempts.

[Linklegacy77]

BP: I've been wondering about this for some time, and I figured I might as well bring this up, even though I'm not actually involved. Shouldn't you hide the fact that one competitor is readying an action? When you write that "Rakesh readies an action" or "Spikey readies an action", it gives the enemy warning that their foe is preparing to do something. In my, albeit humble, opinion, it only encourages metagaming.

[Tashalar]

I think Spikey intended to attempt to destroy the bear's chain after pinning it, not to damage it with grapple attempts.True, Boom - but BP informed me via PM that it is not possible to attack the bear (or anything else it seems) with the kama while pinning. I quickly replied that he should adjust the attacks by grappling in that case (didn't have time yesterday eve).

BP - Spikey's crowd attitude should be +18 now.
Plus... a question. In my hurry yesterday eve, I did not think of attacking the chain first and then the bear. I admit that I thought that attacking the bear would not have been possible, but attacking the chain might be.
You can't attack the Dire Bear with your kama while pinning him.
Since my reply was...
Then Spikey would make grapple attempts, but the last attack would still be to sunder the chain. If that is possible. If not, then... uh... just grapple for damage I guess. Feel free to update please.
... there's nothing I can do about it. :?

What about this... can Spikey let the bear go from the pin but not from the grapple? Seriously, he wants to sunder the chain and if he has to let him go entirely, then that is rather bothersome.

********************
Edit: Well, I read up on the rules and as far as I understand it, he can just release the bear entirely or not at all. If losing the second grapple check voluntarily works, that would be good - otherwise I have posted both options.
Although my copy and paste skills are lacking this time. Too many grapple to pin checks. ;)

[Black Plauge]

BP: I've been wondering about this for some time, and I figured I might as well bring this up, even though I'm not actually involved. Shouldn't you hide the fact that one competitor is readying an action? When you write that "Rakesh readies an action" or "Spikey readies an action", it gives the enemy warning that their foe is preparing to do something. In my, albeit humble, opinion, it only encourages metagaming.
While that's true to an extant (and indeed, Lune brought this up when he posted his readied action this time), I don't feel there is any more possiblitiy for metagaming here than when some one readies an action in a F2F game. Indeed, there is usually less because in an F2F game you generally hear not only that they are readying an action, but what that readied action is and what the trigger is. In this game, most people PM me readied actions so their opponents don't know what the action or trigger are.

What about this... can Spikey let the bear go from the pin but not from the grapple? Seriously, he wants to sunder the chain and if he has to let him go entirely, then that is rather bothersome.
Pinning has to be actively maintained each round so a pin release without ending the grapple is accomplished simply by not allotting a grapple attempt to maintaining the pin.

[Tashalar]

Pinning has to be actively maintained each round so a pin release without ending the grapple is accomplished simply by not allotting a grapple attempt to maintaining the pin.
Well... um... so I could not allot my first grapple to maintain the pin which means that the pin is over. Then attack the chain. Then grapple again to pin? Sort of makes sense...

[Lune]

As for the readied action bit, the player still knows that an action is being readied which is more than the character does. I can definately see that as being enough to deter them from an action they would otherwise take. I wouldn't blame anyone for it as it is a wise tactical decision. However, it is really still metagaming....just subconcious. Well, I dunno if subconcious is the right word, but I think it gets the idea across. Anyway, if you were to only say what the other character percieves rather than what the readying character actually did then it would remove this as a possibility all together.

I know I would prefer that as both the readyer and the readyee. Ha! I love that sentence!

[Tashalar]

However, it is really still metagaming....just subconcious. Well, I dunno if subconcious is the right word, but I think it gets the idea across. Anyway, if you were to only say what the other character percieves rather than what the readying character actually did then it would remove this as a possibility all together.
Hm... I don't entirely get your suggestion. As a player I know if the other character has performed a standard action and a move action or two move actions and all that. So... if he still has a standard action left over, he might as well spell it out (read: character X readies an action) because we as players know it regardless.

I don't really see how a higher level of fairness can be achieved without giving everyone private threads - which wouldn't even help much in many cases and would be very bothersome.

The issue is there, sure. But I'm fine living with it. Admittedly my two characters don't really rely on things like this though.

[Black Plauge]

Well... um... so I could not allot my first grapple to maintain the pin which means that the pin is over. Then attack the chain. Then grapple again to pin? Sort of makes sense...
Yeah, something like that. I'll be the first to admit that its damn confusing. Suffice it to say that if you want to maintain the pin, then the duration of the last pin is long enough for your new grapple checks to be to maintain the pin not establish a new one, but if you don't then the pin, like any other 1 round duration effect, ends at the beginning of your turn.

Edit: Really, the only place where it makes a difference between establishing a new pin and maintaining an old one is the Earth's Embrace feat which deals damage on maintained pins. Since Spikey doesn't have that feat, it doesn't really matter.

[Lune]

For some characters that is true. But think about Moniker. How would a character know if he were readying an action ever? There aren't very many situations that they would.

I don't think private threads are needed. But in the relatively rare cases where readied actions are performed they could simply be PMed.

[SlagMortar]

I like the idea that a character can look at another character and tell they are waiting for something, though there is nothing in the rules that indicates that a readied action is observable. For example, a wizard readies to counterspell by getting his hands ready and closely watching every move the enemy wizard makes. I don't have a problem with the way it is run right now, nor do I object to changing it so the readied action is not explicitly called out.

One advantage of explicitly calling out the readied action is it lets another player or other observer point out a situation where the character used too many actions without having to wait until he readied action is triggered. For example, Rakesh moves 75 feet and stops. Spikey charges in and triggers Rakesh's readied action, except he shouldn't have been able to ready an action because to move 75 feet takes two move actions. This probably wouldn't happen much with a simple movement, but could easily be more complicated if some rough terrain, flying and tumbling were added in. Just a thought.

[SlagMortar]

For some characters that is true. But think about Moniker. How would a character know if he were readying an action ever?
That I certainly agree with. Who knows what's going on in that cloud.

[Lune]

Shouldn't the grease that targeted Rakesh before wash off in the water? Just sayin...

Also: opinions on readied actions done by a character that isn't seen? The player would know but the character wouldn't. Whatcha think, BP?

[Darius]

If I can defend Foom's action in this:

Foom no longer knows where the gladiator that is in the Cloud is exactly in the cloud. Foom, as a result, does not want to risk going back in when he isn't certain where his foe is.

Foom is, point of fact, waiting for his opponent to do something to reveal himself. Even if the Cloud hadn't readied an action, and Foom still hadn't pinpointed his opponent, Foom would not have gone back into the cloud.

[Lune]

Well, he didn't really know where Moniker was when he went in the first time either. He knew where he was the last time he heard him which really makes it no different now. Also, Darius, don't get me wrong. I lay none of this at your shoulders. It is a perfectly reasonable move and a wise tactical decision. I just think it would be better to remove as much OOC knowledge as possible in all situations like this to avoid the possibility of even subconscious metagaming.

[Darius]

Lune- actually, Foom did as he had pinpointed his location within the cloud (after the second time the Cloud threw the javelin).

[SlagMortar]

Oops, I forgot the to hit roll for the follow up attack. The bonus would be +21, unless the charge bonus does not count, in which case it is +19.

[Lune]

Darius - actually, he knew where Moniker was at the time he threw the javelin, but he did not know that he didn't move after that. And that is my point.

[Darius]

Edit: Actually, Foom would have "known" that the Cloud hadn't moved yet as the javelin attack came from someplace that the Cloud would not have been able to move away from. Of course, then we get into true metagaming where the characters are bound by certain artificial constraints such as move actions and standard actions that don't hold quite as true in reality.

[Black Plauge]

Shouldn't the grease that targeted Rakesh before wash off in the water? Just sayin...
There's nothing in the grease spell that says it has a problem with water, or that it can be washed away.

On the issue of readied actions, I will continue to declare when a character readies an action, but not what that readied action, or its trigger, is. It makes it easier for audience members to catch when I make mistakes in number of allowed actions if the act of readying is explicitly declared.

As for the reality of it... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0029.html)

[Tashalar]

Note: You cannot attack outside of a grapple while you are grappling without the Improved Grapple ability.
Uh... Spikey is a Reaping Mauler?
(Just checked - improved grapple is listed under class abilities on Spikey's sheet and not under feats)

Hm... seems like Rakesh hit Spikey's AC exactly if all dodge bonuses don't count.

Strange sight though, really. Spikey is straddling the dire bear, pinning him and there comes Rakesh who... trips him? Right onto the bear? Hm... let's see where we stand after BP has resolved the round - I can see Spikey tripped inside the bear's space. Not a nice situation.

Slag - you need to move Rakesh somewhere else though. He cannot attack Spikey from where you designated.

And... a question: If Spikey releases the bear as a free action, does he stay inside the bear's square or does he automatically move outside of it?

[Tashalar]

Oh, two more things:

Rakesh would get a +1 modifier for attacking 'from higher ground' (I guess).
Rakesh cannot be counter-tripped as he is flying. Other than that Spikey does not have any way of getting to him.

On a side note - the pinning issue has resolved itself with Rakesh's attack, BP. ;)

[Lune]

Flying creatures can be tripped, but only those who fly via wings.

[SlagMortar]

Uh... Spikey is a Reaping Mauler?
(Just checked - improved grapple is listed under class abilities on Spikey's sheet and not under feats)
I think BP meant Improved Grab.
Slag - you need to move Rakesh somewhere else though. He cannot attack Spikey from where you designated.
Why not? Spikey's in I37. Rakesh is attacking from K35. Is it because Rakesh is 5 feet off the ground? I thought reach extended to the corner and at least 5' up and down, but I could be wrong. If that's the case, then I think Rakesh has to attack from K35 on the ground as that is the closest space to his original position.
And... a question: If Spikey releases the bear as a free action, does he stay inside the bear's square or does he automatically move outside of it?
In the previous round when Spikey released the bear, the bear was forced out of Spikey's space. I assume the same thing would happen again.

[Tashalar]

Why not? Spikey's in I37. Rakesh is attacking from K35. Is it because Rakesh is 5 feet off the ground? I thought reach extended to the corner and at least 5' up and down, but I could be wrong. If that's the case, then I think Rakesh has to attack from K35 on the ground as that is the closest space to his original position.I might be imagining things here, but I count Spikey as being 15' away from Rakesh. Being up 5' does not matter at all - but he's two diagonal squares away. The first counts 5', the second 10' for a 15' total.

In the previous round when Spikey released the bear, the bear was forced out of Spikey's space. I assume the same thing would happen again.Ah okay, I'll check that. If that's the case, he'll shove him right at Rakesh. :roll:

[SlagMortar]

I might be imagining things here, but I count Spikey as being 15' away from Rakesh. Being up 5' does not matter at all - but he's two diagonal squares away. The first counts 5', the second 10' for a 15' total.
Reach weapons threaten a complete square around the character. I think the reason is to prevent someone from moving in diagonally against someone with a normal reach weapon like a guisarme without ever moving through a threatened square.
Rules quote under the "Note" here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons)
Ah okay, I'll check that. If that's the case, he'll shove him right at Rakesh.
I'm don't think Spikey gets to choose, though I don't know for sure. That would be interesting to say the least.

[Tashalar]

Rules quote under the "Note" here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons)
Ah, another thing learned on this fine day.

Okay, I'll try to collect the questions for BP:

did you mean improved grab when you stated that someone cannot attack outside of a grapple
what happens when Spikey releases the dire bear - does he automatically move out of the bear's space? does the bear move out of his space? if so, can he as the one pinning the bear decide into which square the bear goes?
hm... there only are two! :?

[Lune]

Everyone have a good holiday weekend?

[Tashalar]

Oh, holiday! I see!

Um... yeah, now that you say it, I remember something on the news - "Bush visits Iraq on Labor Day" or something. Well, 'twas a normal day over here in Europe, but... yeah, fine weekend it was. ;)


It's just a bit cold right now... below 10 degrees Celcius in summer? Gah!
I hope that changes. *points to signature* I'll be at the Baltic Sea the upcoming four days and want to see some sun then. At least a week later when I'm in Spain, sun is more or less guaranteed.

[Black Plauge]

# did you mean improved grab when you stated that someone cannot attack outside of a grapple
Yes, I meant Improved Grab.

# what happens when Spikey releases the dire bear - does he automatically move out of the bear's space? does the bear move out of his space? if so, can he as the one pinning the bear decide into which square the bear goes?
Spikey moves out of the Dire Bear's space automatically and gets to choose what square he moves into. Moving the Dire Bear requires a grapple check to move the grapple.

[Tashalar]

Spikey moves out of the Dire Bear's space automatically and gets to choose what square he moves into. Moving the Dire Bear requires a grapple check to move the grapple.
Sounds wonderful if he can do it while prone (I guess he has to stand up first and then release the bear) and if that movement does not provoke an AoO...

Ah, curious as to how the two matches will turn out. :)

[Lune]

Sounds wonderful if he can do it while prone (I guess he has to stand up first and then release the bear) and if that movement does not provoke an AoO...
Oh gosh, I hadn't considered that part of it. Yeah, that is confusing. When you exit the grapple you get to choose which square you exit to...but do you get to choose whether you are standing or not? RAW, I'd say no I guess. As it isn't movement but rather just choosing which square you are ejected to then I would say it doesn't provoke. Unless something about moving while prone (how often does that happen?) makes you provoke.

[SlagMortar]

Spikey moves out of the Dire Bear's space automatically and gets to choose what square he moves into. Moving the Dire Bear requires a grapple check to move the grapple.
Hmm, I thought it would work like the Dire Bear escaping from the grapple. If Spikey is the one that moves when releasing a pin, then why was it the dire bear that moved during Spikey's round 15 action?

[Lune]

I believe that when you choose to exit the grapple that you currently have established that you are more in control of where you exit to than when you make a grapple check to escape the grapple.

[SlagMortar]

I'm not sure what you mean. You can't choose to escape a grapple you have established. When you are grappling you can end the grapple either by making a grapple check to escape, or pinning and then releasing your opponent. It seems to me if you make a grapple check to escape the grapple, then you would move. If you release your opponent, then your opponent moves. At least, that's what happened in round 15.

[SlagMortar]

Another question:
If Spikey is allowed to choose where to be after releasing the bear from the pin, would that movement provoke an attack of opportunity from Rakesh?

[Lune]

Your right, you can only "release" your opponent if your pinning them. Thats what I was thinking about though. So it would probably be better if he pinned and then released. But the other questions remain, I guess. I don't think it would provoke an AoO because it isn't actual movement. It is just choosing where you are exiting the grapple at. I also don't believe it would provoke unless any action taken would provoke. And as far as I know, none of them did.

[Black Plauge]

Hmm, I thought it would work like the Dire Bear escaping from the grapple. If Spikey is the one that moves when releasing a pin, then why was it the dire bear that moved during Spikey's round 15 action?
Doh! I moved the wrong one. I guess I forgot where everyone started. I'll just shift the whole grapple back to where it should be and forget that ever happened.

As for provoking: No, the act of releasing a grapple, despite the fact that this causes your character to change squares, does not provoke an AoO.

[SlagMortar]

Ok. Please adjust Rakesh's final position so he makes a legal charge. Rakesh has to end in the closest square from which he could attack. I think that would be L35.

I would actually have done something different if I had known Spikey could either move next to Rakesh without using any actions or provoking an attack of opportunity or that Spikey could get away and stand up without provoking. Oh well. Maybe the dire bear will escape the pin on its turn and then I don't have to worry about it.

Edit: Oh, since releasing a pin does not explicitly allow you to move, I would think it should follow the rules for ending your turn in an illegal square:

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

Closest Creature
When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die.

[Black Plauge]

Oh well. Maybe the dire bear will escape the pin on its turn and then I don't have to worry about it.
The dice gods seem to have granted your wish.

[SlagMortar]

Rakesh charges Spikey, attempting to trip. 24 vs. Touch AC 30. Misses.
Spikey's loses his dex and dodge bonuses while grappling. His touch AC while grappling is 10 +7 wis +4 monk +2 deflection = 23.

[Black Plauge]

Grr... Working on fixing...

Edit: Fixed.

[Tashalar]

Oh my, just read through all of this first... now will look at the match. If I have any questions, I'll try to ask them now and quick before I go to bed - but don't expect any update until tomorrow (my tomorrow ;) ).

[Tashalar]

Oh well. Maybe the dire bear will escape the pin on its turn and then I don't have to worry about it.
Nonono!! Not NOW!! :?

If I understand all the rules issues correctly, then Spikey can release the bear from the pin as a free action and end up where he wants - more or less. Oh, the dice god actually was not for him.

Ah well... now he'll have to hope for an instant-pin so that he still can choose what to do. But he cannot use flurry in the upcoming round, so I guess Rakesh does not have anything to fear. But he won't finish him with an AoO either. ;)

[Tashalar]

Hm... I forgot to get out my special die again... maybe I should've. At least it's not entirely over yet... probably.

[Lune]

Speaking (yelling even) should have set the listen DC to 0 for the first listen check that was not performed. It doesn't matter that much since he heard him move from that position anyway, just pointing it out.

[Black Plauge]

The bottle drop and the yelling both had the same DC so I only listed it once.

[SlagMortar]

I think Spikey standing should have provoked an attack of opportunity from the Dire Bear.

[Black Plauge]

Tumbled to avoid it.

[SlagMortar]

The tumble check allows standing as a free action, but still provokes an attack of opportunity.

Edit: Here's a reference in this thread where we talked about it. (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showpost.php?p=229747&postcount=870)

[Lune]

Hrm...I was thinking about that. I think you are right, Slag.
Also, yelling and dropping a bottle are the same listen check? Thats a little screwy...but whatever.

[Black Plauge]

Oops. Forgot about that. I was thinking you were refering to the move. Allow me to fix that.

[Black Plauge]

Also, yelling and dropping a bottle are the same listen check? Thats a little screwy...but whatever.
For some one in the midst of rage? Yes. Were Moniker not raging I think the bottle drop DC would be higher. As is he's not paying much attention to how much noise he's making.

[Lune]

Wouldn't a rage filled yell be louder than dropping a bottle? Meh, nevermind. Its a non-issue anyway.

[SlagMortar]

Two quick notes on Rakesh vs Spikey:
1. Spikey's crowd attitude should be 19. It was not adjusted for his most recent impressive jump.
2. I forgot to include the +2 morale bonus to damage on Rakesh's claw attack.

[SlagMortar]

More comments on Rakesh vs Spikey:
1. Rakesh dealt max damage with his claw attack, so I think that should add another +1 to his crowd attitude score.
2. The Dire Bear's chain is broken so it should have moved farther, probably toward Rakesh.
3. Spikey had 106 hit points, and 61 non-lethal damage. His wholeness of body heals 22 of both, I think. That should leave him with 39 non-lethal damage (correct in the update) and 128 hit points (incorrect in the update).

[Linklegacy77]

I've been thinking about the whole Deflect Arrows + uncanny dodge thing, and I actually found something on it.


At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted) or struck by an invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible) attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#improvedUncannyDodge) instead.

Note that even though he retains his dex bonus, he is still flat-footed, an important distinction.


Deflect Arrows [General]

Prerequisites

Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike).
Benefit

You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted).


Thus, uncanny dodge actually does absolutely nothing to assist deflect arrows.

[Black Plauge]

RvS is fixed (I hope).

[Black Plauge]

Link, as I recall, however, we weren't talking about a situation in which Foom was flat-footed. It had to do with the attacker being invisible, but that doesn't make Foom flat-footed.

[Lune]

If I understand Link correctly, I think that is his point, BP.
Note: While The Cloud is effectively invisible for this attack, Foom is outside of the cloud and thus can see the javelin before it reaches him (for just over 2 feet), which, to my mind, constitutes awareness of the attack. Thus I am ruling that he has a chance to use his Deflect Arrows feat. However, because of the short distance, I’m going to say that he has to make a reflex save to do so against The Cloud’s attack roll.
The Cloud moves, drawing his javelin as he goes and jumping up onto a platform. Move Silently 40. Climb 16 vs. DC 15. Success.
The Cloud attacks Foom. 33 vs. AC 27 (no Dex). Hits. Reflex 30 vs. DC 33. Deflect arrows fails. Deals 37 damage.

Foom receives a cure critical wounds (26 hp), a cure moderate wounds (10 hp), and a cure minor wounds (1 hp) spell to heal the lethal damage dealt by The Cloud. Crowd attitude towards The Cloud worsens 3 steps. The Cloud is now disliked.
Even though Foom was not flat-footed your ruling had been that deflect arrows only has a chance of happening rather than happening all the time. Instead, because of the chance given his attack hit and thus the Cloud of Death was considered cheating and his crowd attitude worsened 3 steps bringing him down to disliked.

If I recall correctly at the time I also had been under the impression that the javelin would get harmlessly deflected.

edit: Also, I was looking back through the combat thread to see if this affected anything and I noticed something:
19, 34, & 20 vs. AC 24. One deflected by natural armor, two hit. Deals 12 non-lethal damage.
That should be one hit and likely less damage to the Cloud of Death.

I didn't see anything else it affected yet, but it could affect things in the future.

[Darius]

Lune- I think that the second part had been edited. The original series of attacks had hit twice, but the edited series only hit once. BP is good about posting individual damage results as opposed to combining them, so I think that the 12 non-lethal points of damage remains.

Also, the question was not whether or not Foom was flat-footed; the question was if he was aware of the attack. The problem being that a projectile from an otherwise hidden character is not hidden. BP had to make a ruling based on where Foom was positioned as to whether or not he was aware of the attack, not whether or not Foom was flat-footed.

Foom also does not have uncanny dodge as a class trait, so maybe I'm confused as to the relevance here.

[Lune]

As far as I can tell it doesn't matter if he was aware of the attack. In fact, as that initially seemed odd to me I checked into it and couldn't find anything to refute it. I guess it can make sense though. Think about all the Kung Fu movies that are out where a master is training blind folded and catches a dagger thrown at him or some such thing.

Also...I think projectiles are never hidden. Unless someone actually bothered to cast invisibility on each individual arrow...Hrm.

BTW, I don't think the uncanny dodge has any relavance one way or the other.

[Darius]

So I have to ask, why did the Cloud throw the javelin at all if he thought Foom was going to deflect it?

[Lune]

Provocation. I said this earlier in the thread as well.
As a side note...it didn't end up working though. Foom just ran away again. ;)

[Black Plauge]

As far as I can tell it doesn't matter if he was aware of the attack.
That was the whole point of the discussion, actually. Deflect Arrows specifies that you have to be aware of the attack to deflect it, so the question is what constitutes awareness of the attack? Foom certainly couldn't see The Cloud himself, but he could see the javelin once it exited the cloud.

[Lune]

I know that we are going in circles here but in the grand melee when Del used his arrow storm ranged disarm of doom maneuver not all of the combatants could see the attack coming, yet deflect arrows worked for them. But aside from that there are other ways to "be aware of the attack" than just seeing it...even though he could see that too. Think of it this way, if he could see it being thrown by an attacker from 10' away and still react to it then he should be able to react to it from the same distance that it left the Cloud in. Just personal opinion, of course. Anyway, I'm not so much making the point for myself...just explaining where I thought Link was going with it. I really should let him defend his own point though.

[Linklegacy77]

Yes, yes you should.

[Lune]

Well...its just that you suck at it. Heh. ;)

[Linklegacy77]

It's irrelevant anyways, so I stopped.

And no, I don't suck at it.

[Tashalar]

BP - I deleted my sent messages because my box was getting full...

You can go ahead and update the next round for Spikey for me if you still have my PM. I'll post again after that.

Or I'll go ahead and post this round as well - whatever you prefer. I do think I still remember what I wanted Spikey to do... 95% sure. ;)

[Tashalar]

Oh, on an unrelated note...

Kite surfing is dangerous!!

I was at the Baltic Sea over the weekend with my gf. After spending half a day at the sea in bad weather, we returned home and rested... and then the sun suddenly came out. That's when we decided we might as well drive to the place where we had seen all those kite surfers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite_surfing) and watch them a bit (we'd never seen this sport before) and enjoy the sun (although it was quite stormy).

So... we drove there, parked the car and sat on the grass to watch. After about a minute we saw a kite surfer having difficulty, hopping out of the water in leaps - being pulled by his kite (instead of bringing down his kite). On the grass, he lay down to keep from being pulled further and suddenly there were two others helping him - one holding him, the other trying to get the kite to tip over and drop. The next moment, the guy is ripped from their grasp, does a huge vault over the first row of cars and crash sideways into our car in the second row. Dropping to the ground, the kite then pulls the poor guy underneath the next car before getting entangled in the nearbye trees.

...

Yesterday I got the call that the guy is out of danger - luckily he had taken every protective measure there is, he even had a swim vest on. A concussion, abrasions and bruises are all - but he could've been dead. Seriously.

So... yeah. Just thought I'd share this crazy incident... glad the guy isn't harmed much at all. Poor guy will have to pay for my parent's car though. :?

[Tashalar]

Whew... dice rolls were lucky for Spikey... but for Rakesh as well! I had hoped he'd be prone now! Ah well, time to finish the match... brave, brave Spikey... let's see what he can manage to do before going down. ;)

But I fear I might only get around to posting in the morning.

Edit: I think that Rakesh should not have gotten an increase in crowd appreciation for his second spring attack (this last round) since only one other adjustment had taken place since the other one (the trip).

Edit 2: Spikey's hp should be at 128 and not 135 I think.

Edit 3: Rakesh's hp should be 112 - 78 + 34 from raging.

Btw - Good interpretation of my intent of what I wanted Spikey to do, BP. :)

[Darius]

BP- any listen checks for Foom?

[Black Plauge]

Doh. Sorry.

[Tashalar]

BP - there's a bit missing in the Spikey vs. Rakesh match... the result of the rolls, the crowd attitude adjustment, Spikey isn't prone anymore... :)

[Black Plauge]

Damn clipboard mustn't have synced properly again. Parallels is usually pretty good about that, but every once in a while...

[Darius]

BP- before I go and post (actually I will post anyway), but was Foom supposed to get his full AC against the ranged attack? I'm pretty sure that blindfight doesn't allow the Dex bonus to be retained except for melee attacks. Or does this go back to whether or not Foom was aware of the attack?

[Tashalar]

*sigh*

This.. is difficult. I had Spikey come back out of the water because I don't feel like waiting until Rakesh's rage is over - even though that would have more advantages than disadvantages imo. Now... Spikey has experienced what a charge from Rakesh can do to him - he can at least guess that Rakesh is preparing to swoop down upon him once more.

And... that would mean the battle is over. The trip is almost automatic, the follow up for damage more or less as well - getting up from prone means another AoO and... done.

So... what to do? Spikey cannot help but try to evade Rakesh's attack - but that tactic is very, very lame in the long run. As long as Spikey does not have any chance of attacking Rakesh, he'll have to 'move tactically' so to speak though.

Right now I cannot think of anything to solve the situation unless Rakesh gives up on an advantage he has - which I cannot expect. What do you think, Slag?

[Lune]

Darius: I was wondering the same thing.
Either he retains his dex because he is aware of the attack and the javelin would have been deflected, or he loses his dex because he isn't aware of the attack and the bolas would have hit.

[SlagMortar]

This.. is difficult. I had Spikey come back out of the water because I don't feel like waiting until Rakesh's rage is over - even though that would have more advantages than disadvantages imo. Now... Spikey has experienced what a charge from Rakesh can do to him - he can at least guess that Rakesh is preparing to swoop down upon him once more.
I agree its difficult. Rakesh could have gone into the water. Since his spiked chain is technically a piercing weapon, I think he would have had an advantage, especially because it has reach and Spikey can't take a 5 foot step in the water. However, I don't think it makes sense that the spiked chain works with no penalty in the water so I didn't want to fight it out there. Obviously, Rakesh has experienced what Spikey can do with hustle and full attack so he'd like to find a way to avoid that if possible.
So... what to do? Spikey cannot help but try to evade Rakesh's attack - but that tactic is very, very lame in the long run. As long as Spikey does not have any chance of attacking Rakesh, he'll have to 'move tactically' so to speak though.
I don't really like the ready an action to move mechanic, especially since it can interrupt an attack, but I'm not sure what to do about it.
Right now I cannot think of anything to solve the situation unless Rakesh gives up on an advantage he has - which I cannot expect. What do you think, Slag?
I do have a trick in mind that I think will give Rakesh the advantage, though unfortunately since I already raged it takes away some of my options. It will be slightly less effective than a Flying Rage Charge, but not terribly much so, I think.

[Tashalar]

Ah.. invisibility. I have been waiting for that - although the situation wasn't quite right most of the time.

Let's see how this goes. :)

[Lord Twig]

Just to throw my two copper in.

It is inevitable that one person is going to start to lose in each match. At this point you can try to drag it out by avoiding combat or you can just give it your best shot and lose gracefully.

Honestly there has been too much hiding and running away in these matches in my humble opinion. Moving away for one round to get a better position I can see, but if you keep running or refuse to come out and fight what kind of gladiator are you?

At some point you may have to give up an advantage in order to draw your opponent in. This should be easier if you are the one that is currently winning, but it is something both sides should consider.

[Black Plauge]

BP- before I go and post (actually I will post anyway), but was Foom supposed to get his full AC against the ranged attack? I'm pretty sure that blindfight doesn't allow the Dex bonus to be retained except for melee attacks. Or does this go back to whether or not Foom was aware of the attack?

Reading the rules, no he shouldn't have. By a strict reading, the bonuses and penalties associated with invisiblity are not related to awareness of an attack (as awareness of the attack is not mentioned). Indeed being "aware of the attack" is used in 4 places in the rules (the rogue's Defensive Roll, Deflect Arrows and Return Shot feats, & a giant's Rock Catching) and is inadequately defined in all four.

Which, comes to think of it, brings up another problem: can bolos be deflected? Strictly speaking, they aren't unusually massive of a spell effect, so the answer is yes (as ridiculous as that might seem to try and envision). That being so, I think that the ruling should go the same way as the javelin because they are comming out the cloud just like it was. I.e. Foom needs to make a Reflex save to deflect them.

[Lune]

LT: I agree.

BP: So what does that mean for the bolas attack? Shouldn't it have hit then?

[Black Plauge]

Yes and no.

It hit, but it got deflected. Check the match thread. I've edited it to reflect what I think should be there.

[Darius]

BP- Foom should get an adjustment to his attitude score based on the deflection.

[Lord Twig]

So Cloud made an AoO against Foom. Did he draw his spare Spiked Chain at some time? I'm assuming yes.

[Lune]

Nah, I'm cheatin'. ;)

[Lord Twig]

It's just one of those problems with the hidden thread for Cloud. We don't know if he had his weapon ready or if BP just forgot that he didn't have it and gave you the AoO by mistake. I figured you did have your chain out, but figured I would mention it to be sure.

[Black Plauge]

Yes. Moniker did draw his spare spiked chain at one point. Lune specifically asked me not to mention it because of the AoO issue. Everyone will be able to see exactly when he drew it when the private thread gets merged with the main thread at the end of the match.

[Tashalar]

A little belated: Good post, good points, LT.

I think Rakesh vs. Spikey will be over soon though. And we've found away to not prolong it much longer.

Note: I will be on vacation - I do hope I can get access via an internet cafe and if I do, I will make sure to update. Please do not hold me to the usual 24 hours posting frames though... I will try my best to update as quickly as possible - but there even is the slight chance I might not be able to do so at all. In that case... I'll be back Sunday the 23rd. :)

[SlagMortar]

Well, we now know the dice don't care who sacrificed their position to keep the match going. ;)

[Tashalar]

I think Spikey will be very much tripped - he only has a 20% chance to evade that. And even with a free action kip up and hustle... he then still has to get Rakesh in his grasp.

Well, let's see how it goes. BP - now that I know Rakesh's move (it was predictable but still), you'll have to scavenge what you can from my ready action PM. I think my intent was clear enough though... I hope. :)

Kudos for taking the risk, Slag. I don't think it's a huge one, but you took it. So... kudos. :)

[SlagMortar]

I think Spikey will be very much tripped - he only has a 20% chance to evade that.
There was only a 15% chance that the follow up attack would miss. :)
Kudos for taking the risk, Slag. I don't think it's a huge one, but you took it. So... kudos. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20happy.gif
Yeah, Rakesh still has a good chance, I think.

[Lord Twig]

Some bad rolls there Slag, the only good one was the first one to hit. To bad you rolled a d28, otherwise that 25 you rolled would have been great! :cool:

[Tashalar]

Some bad rolls there Slag, the only good one was the first one to hit. To bad you rolled a d28, otherwise that 25 you rolled would have been great!
Ha! Cheater!! :yum:

[Black Plauge]

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm not sure I would have noticed it otherwise.

[SlagMortar]

To bad you rolled a d28, otherwise that 25 you rolled would have been great!
Oh, whoops! This isn't the d28 system?

[Tashalar]

Hey Slag... we're still using D&D 3.5 here!!

You're way ahead... 4th edition is still to come! I've heard rumors it will be a d28 system... :yum:

[Black Plauge]

What would that die look like?

[Linklegacy77]

Some extra dimensions in there.

I hear that we'll be using d11's too.

[SlagMortar]

It is related to how they are reworking some of the planes. It wouldn't be possible with the Great Wheel.

[Lord Twig]

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm not sure I would have noticed it otherwise.

I'm here to help! :)

It's interesting how in both matches the gladiator that went on the offensive ended up the worse for it. They were both still good moves! Despite good tactics luck can still go against you. The odds were in your favor, but the dice let you down.

I am reminded of the Callen Silver vs. The Lone Halfling match where Callen jumped on a platform and attacked the Halfling. A hit would have ended the match and he would only miss on a one, and that's what he rolled! Ended up losing that match. :fun:

[Chris Chandler]

I remember that match - The Lone Halfling rules!!!

[Lune]

It's just one of those problems with the hidden thread for Cloud. We don't know if he had his weapon ready or if BP just forgot that he didn't have it and gave you the AoO by mistake. I figured you did have your chain out, but figured I would mention it to be sure.
This all happened around the time that I had also asked before that BP not reveal other things that wouldn't be known by the other gladiator such as when Moniker is readying an action. We all know the result of that, but as we can all now see not knowing something OOC that a character wouldn't know IC can (and has) change what the player would have the character do. Not that I blame the player, it is only sound tactics to not bungle into an unfavorable situation. Just saying...

Hillarious about the d11 and the planes. lol

[Lune]

Also, was that last attack of Rakesh's a whiff? It was, wasn't it? Wouldn't that not only give him a negetive crowd attitude modifier but also reduce it to the point he is no longer in free true rez +3/+3 zone? Unless I misunderstand whiff again.

[SlagMortar]

Whiffs occur when the attack roll is less than the 10 + opponent's Dex + Dodge bonuses. Spikey's Dex bonus is +4. His Dodge bonus is +6. That gives a 20. I'm not sure if that is modified by the -4 for being prone, but either way, I rolled a 23 for Rakesh.

[Lune]

Oh, I thought it was simply a miss when it didn't even connect to armor/shield/nat armor, etc. My bad. I didn't realize it had to be missed by -10. Wasn't there some kind of decision about Monk AC also applying as it adds to Dex bonus to AC?

[SlagMortar]

It has nothing to do with missing by 10.

Here's the post (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showpost.php?p=224903&postcount=758) where Boomlaor objected to having his attack that missed Foom due to monk's AC bonus called a whiff.

Here's the post (http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/showpost.php?p=225065&postcount=771) where Black Plague ruled that Boomlaor's objection was correct and monk AC bonuses are not counted when determining a whiff.