Gladiator Tournament II - Rules Preview & Discussion [Archive] - Page 12

Lord Twig

6th of December, 2007, 11:45

Bah! I hate forgetting to make a roll. Now thanks to that natural 1, I'm left in suspense. If the bite attack misses, Gork likely wins. If it misses, Rakesh likely loses. Note that the natural 1 drops Rakesh's morale bonus from +2 to +1 after the second attack so his second two hits with the spiked chain each do 1 less damage and his stats for the final attack should be: +15 to hit, 1d6+13 damage.

Didn't account for the moral bonus, so 129 damage then. :)

SlagMortar

6th of December, 2007, 11:45

It's 126 by my count. Gork has an adamantine chain shirt for damage reduction 1/-. If Rakesh's bite hits and does minimum damage, Gork will be exactly disabled. I'm glad those spiked chain damage rolls were as good as they were!

Lord Twig

6th of December, 2007, 11:47

Tashalar

6th of December, 2007, 17:57

*drum roll*

Minimum damage would mean he is at -1 if my math is correct...

20% chance to survive... and even if he does and hog-ties Rakesh, Rakesh is strong enough to burst his chains. That would be interesting to watch, really. :)

Boomlaor

6th of December, 2007, 18:46

My low AC/awesome offensive move build doesn't seem to be working out so well. If my dice don't betray me on the initial attack, Gork almost can't lose, with his grapple score. (I have to say almost, after the pitiful showing against spikey). However, my dice haven't liked me on those first rolls. I would have done better with a character who could take a few hits to ensure him a second chance at the grapple.

Tashalar

6th of December, 2007, 21:29

True enough... that's one reason why I'd love to see some kind of rerun for this in the future. I've learned a lot about why Coravel is not as good as I thought at the beginning. I even asked BP if Coravel is too strong before the tourney started - which just serves to prove my naiveté... and my lack of knowledge on certain rules.

Although it might be hard to find a DM to host it - I'm sure BP wants to play in the next big tourney that comes up for once! ;)

SlagMortar

7th of December, 2007, 01:53

I really thought going in Rakesh had a better than 50/50 chance against Gork. I was planning to keep my distance and use ranged attacks since Gork's AC is low enough to make Rakesh seem a competent ranged attacker. I knew it was going to be tough to stay away from a flying Gork though, and I miss judged the initial distance anyway.

I'm also not sure you can say the build is not working out so well. If Rakesh's bite attack hits then Gork got 3rd out of 12. If it misses, then Gork got 2nd, of 1st if he can get lucky enough to beat Spikey twice. Of course, Gork could have lost to Foom without a good roll on his save vs stun, and I don't think Gork would have made it past Cloud so it could have easily got the other way.

Minimum damage would mean he is at -1 if my math is correct...

Don't forget the damage reduction and the reduction in morale bonus. The minimum damage on the final attack is 13.

Black Plauge

7th of December, 2007, 06:00

Well, that was quick.

We're down to a try for the championship.

Note, since the tournament is double elimination, Rakesh must beat Spikey twice to claim the title, but Spikey need only beat Rakesh once.

Also, there is still the possible crowd favorite rematch to account for. As it stands, the crowd favorite is Spikey, but with one, and possibly two more matches for him to go, his score will change. Since both he and Rakesh are still competing, they could, in theory, earn another go by focusing on Crowd Attitude in an otherwise losing match.

Of the eliminated gladiators, Coravel is the current favorite and he is so far ahead of Gork (who might still gain some ground from the votes) that I strongly suspect that he'll be the one waiting for Spikey or Rakesh to falter.

SlagMortar

7th of December, 2007, 06:01

Doesn't Rakesh still have to finish off Gus? Gork is only unconscious so if Gus knew the appropriate tricks and had a potion, Gus could even heal Gork back to consciousness. I thought that would give Rakesh a chance to use his signature. There's also a chance, though extremely remote, of Gus defeating Rakesh in a one on one.

However, Rakesh would have gone ahead with the same tactic even if I had known the match would end when Gork was knocked unconscious, so it's not a real big deal, other than the crowd attitude penalties.

Tashalar

7th of December, 2007, 06:13

Black Plauge

7th of December, 2007, 06:27

Doesn't Rakesh still have to finish off Gus?
Nope. Animal companions, mounts, and familiars may help/harm a gladiator in a match, but they don't have to be killed or knocked unconcious to win.

Gork is only unconscious so if Gus knew the appropriate tricks and had a potion, Gus could even heal Gork back to consciousness.
Gork's orders to Gus preclude that possibility. Also, the judges know that Gork's equipment and Gus's abilities don't include anything that could revive Gork in short order and allow him to continue the match so even if Gus could successfully distract Rakesh for a period of time, Gork is out of this fight.

SlagMortar

7th of December, 2007, 06:29

Well, the 80% prevailed... congrats for the win, Slag - even though I'd have loved to see Rakesh not hit on the last attack and the fight to continue. Not because I'd have preferred a different outcome but because I'd be curious to see how it would've turned out! http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20happy.gif

In any ways - congrats! Now let's see how the rematch goes... just keep in mind that Spikey's unarmed damage mircaculously went up in-between matches. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20cheeky.gif
Thanks! I think Rakesh is going to have a very hard time beating Spikey twice. Once maybe, but for twice he's going to have to get very lucky.

Actually, given the crowd attitude scores and Spikey's ability to endlessly pump his up, Rakesh might likely have to beat him three times to win the tournament.

Edit:
Nope. Animal companions, mounts, and familiars may help/harm a gladiator in a match, but they don't have to be killed or knocked unconcious to win.

Fair enough.

Tashalar

7th of December, 2007, 06:34

Actually, given the crowd attitude scores and Spikey's ability to endlessly pump his up, Rakesh might likely have to beat him three times to win the tournament.
Heh... I remember keeping my eye on the crowd attitude scores because I thought that Spikey would lose to Rakesh and then probably against The Cloud... so I thought that his only chance would be to get a rematch for the championship via crowd attitude.

*rummages around for his wonder-d20* Now if I find that one again, Slag, then Rakesh won't stand a chance. Or have you found your own wonder-d20 by now? :ditsy:

SlagMortar

7th of December, 2007, 06:40

Heh... I remember keeping my eye on the crowd attitude scores because I thought that Spikey would lose to Rakesh and then probably against The Cloud... so I thought that his only chance would be to get a rematch for the championship via crowd attitude.

Depending on the monsters involved, Rakesh's best "winning" strategy might be to use them to boost his crowd attitude while just trying to stay away from Spikey. Say there are two flesh golems on opposite sides of the arena, Rakesh could trip whichever is farther from Spikey and spring attack away. Then once his crowd attitude was higher he could lose the match.

Of course, he's have to either throw in a max damage claw attack, or have Spikey help to get that adjustment, and Spikey might be able to keep up with his crowd boosting using jumps and tumbles.

Of course, that wouldn't be any fun as it would resemble a "dance off" more than anything else, and would do very little to prove whether Rakesh is better than Spikey. :) Beating Spikey three times in a row on the other hand ... ;)

Tashalar

7th of December, 2007, 08:43

Beating Spikey three times in a row on the other hand ...
That would be simply heroic. Absolutely unrealistic as well. *self-assuring nod* :)

Lord Twig

7th of December, 2007, 08:44

Quick battle, but it got a couple of Cheers from me. :)

Since we are moving into the Championship match, does that mean the next Tournament will start excepting sign ups? I believe it is the Psionic Tournament run by Boomlaor?

Lord Twig

7th of December, 2007, 08:44

That would be simply heroic. Absolutely unrealistic as well. *self-assuring nod* :)

Well, Lily won from the Loser's bracket, so anything is possible! :)

Tashalar

8th of December, 2007, 21:42

Say there are two flesh golems on opposite sides of the arena, Rakesh could trip whichever is farther from Spikey and spring attack away.
I concur... just replace the words "flesh golems" with "dragonnes", will ya? :roll:

Tashalar

11th of December, 2007, 01:30

This is not a must, but:

If possible, I'd rather have the championship match start on the 17th than today (or some time this week). Past experience has shown that my concentration on my studies 'wavers' frequently when I need to make an important move here - and I've got my next to last exam the coming Monday.

If the show must go on, I'll simply keep my posts inside the maximum allowed time frame. Although that won't keep me from thinking about them. ;)

SlagMortar

11th of December, 2007, 08:57

It doesn't really make me much difference when the match starts.

Perhaps Tashalar should just concede the first match and make it a single elimination tournament. :) He's clearly scared of facing Rakesh again.

Black Plauge

11th of December, 2007, 09:14

I prefer that we don't totally delay things by a week, but I will be a bit more flexible about the deadlines since I understand the wrench that finals can throw into schedules.

Tashalar

11th of December, 2007, 18:31

Perhaps Tashalar should just concede the first match and make it a single elimination tournament. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20happy.gif He's clearly scared of facing Rakesh again.HAA-IIII!! *does his special Wu-Fu kick that works over the interwebs*

Yeah. Wu-Fu. Now you're shivering, eh? :P

I prefer that we don't totally delay things by a week, but I will be a bit more flexible about the deadlines since I understand the wrench that finals can throw into schedules.
Okay - I probably will post as regularly as usual.. since I can't keep myself from doing it. But if not - thanks for being flexible.

Edit: I asked for dragonnes, BP. Dragonnes!! ;)

Black Plauge

12th of December, 2007, 03:58

Talk to the dice. They dictate the monster choice.

Tashalar

12th of December, 2007, 08:10

Talk to the dice. They dictate the monster choice.I would! But how?!

Okay, I just skimmed Slag's post and without trying to comprehend what he trying to do, I'll post mine. :)

Edit: Posted - the match is on!! And they both already have a cheer! :)

SlagMortar

12th of December, 2007, 08:35

Hm. I guess I forgot the rather obvious condition of what to do if Spikey moves to within 90 feet of L24, but Rakesh still can't get farther than 90 feet with a 40 foot move.

Basically, if Rakesh loses initiative, he wants to be at least 90 feet away from Spikey and out of the threat of monsters. I'm going to edit the post with this intent and let BP choose where to place Rakesh if he loses initiative.

Tashalar

12th of December, 2007, 09:07

No problem... the whole initiative thing is simply weird.

In this case, I'd rather lose initiative. But delaying on round one is simply silly imo so... pfft. *shrug*

Tashalar

13th of December, 2007, 04:04

Not really of importance, but the duration for animal affinity should be 80 rounds (practiced manifester). :)

Black Plauge

13th of December, 2007, 04:23

That will be imporant for greater concealing amorpha though, so I should fix both.

Lune

13th of December, 2007, 05:03

Already planning for the fight to go for 80 rounds then? ;)

Tashalar

13th of December, 2007, 05:42

Sure. :P

Ah, but I didn't check for concealing amorpha and BP is right - it does matter for that one.

Tashalar

14th of December, 2007, 18:30

Ah, the fight is on!!

I guess there will be a lot more misses than hits the next few rounds... :)

I'll post later today.

Tashalar

15th of December, 2007, 01:53

Okay, I'm ready to post... now where is my wonder-d20?

I remember it being blue... but... I have 4 wonderful blue d20s and 2 green d20s. Reminds me of the chance of hitting the real Rakesh just now. Hm... I'll try... this one.

*heads of to finalize post*

Oh, and I must say that I'm getting much quicker with posting this stuff. Might be because I forgot something essential - or might be the 'training' we've players had. ;)

Edit:
Okay, the results of this round: Spikey loses his kama and 2 points crowd attitude. He hits once with his second attack to deal 4d8+7 damage and hopefully stun Rakesh ( ;) ), then he rolls crap twice and finally destroys two images.
So... a little damage, a possible stun, crowd score reduction, loss of kama and one image left. Hm... that was the wrong d20 for sure. But a bad save can still save this round! :roll:

Tashalar

15th of December, 2007, 02:30

I edited my post to include the non-lethal damage note. ;)

Rakesh enters the arena ready to be greeted by the wild cheers of his supporters, but instead finds those cheering for him nearly drowned out by Spikey's fans. Is it my fault the giant lummoxes I fought went down so quickly? No matter, this fight is for me.

I thought a little about crowd attitude and how it worked out over the course of the tournament. While I really like the benefits of the crowd in fights, the whole 'challenge the champion' affair I'm not so sure about. Especially if one takes into account what Rakesh addresses in his thoughts. A small but effective fix might be a rather large bonus to the crowd attitude score in case a gladiator wins very quickly - therebye showing his dominance.
Otherwise the crowd score goes down by a lot - as was the case for Rakesh.

SlagMortar

15th of December, 2007, 02:36

A small but effective fix might be a rather large bonus to the crowd attitude score in case a gladiator wins very quickly - therebye showing his dominance.
I don't have a problem with the crowd not liking a short match. A longer match would certainly be more exciting. In Gork vs Rakesh for example, I think the match would have been over nearly as quickly if Gork had made his concealment roll. Rakesh wasn't escaping the grapple and he might have burst the manacles, but bursting the manacles takes full round action so he'd still be right there for Gork to grapple again. Rakesh's crowd attitude took the big hit because he didn't do anything to impress them - not even his signature - vs Gork. Of course, in Rakesh's mind they should have been impressed. ;)

Tashalar

15th of December, 2007, 02:38

Yes, I agree that it makes sense from a kind of IC spectator perspective. I just don't think it makes that much sense from an OOC balance perspective.

Edit: Slag.. did you take my d20? Now the crowd only sees the two dropping their weapons. How uncool is that. :x-eyed:

SlagMortar

15th of December, 2007, 02:39

Damn dice! Oh well, they carried me through Yarden, Brunhilda, and Gork. I guess I'll have to beat Spikey without them.

Edit: Does Rakesh get credit for a disarm when he pulls Spikey's kama away? I think he probably should, though he didn't in the previous match.

Tashalar

15th of December, 2007, 02:46

Edit: Does Rakesh get credit for a disarm when he pulls Spikey's kama away? I think he probably should, though he didn't in the previous match.
Nope, Spikey only gets a -2 to crowd score. At least this is how it was handled so far.

Btw - I didn't actually figure out that the other two attacks would hit as well if Rakesh were stunned. That was quite the surprise just now...

SlagMortar

15th of December, 2007, 02:47

Yup. That -2 to AC while stunned in addition to losing dex bonus is pretty killer.

Tashalar

15th of December, 2007, 04:04

It turned out like we thought it would, Slag. ;)

But BP - Spikey's damage has been changed to 4d8, remember? Shall I edit it on his sheet? I thought you simply rolled low at first, but 4d8+7 can never be 10. ;)

Black Plauge

15th of December, 2007, 04:13

I rolled the damage listed in your post, which now that I look at it is for the kama, not your unarmed strike. I'll fix that.

Tashalar

15th of December, 2007, 04:46

Ya know.. this time I messed up on the damage. It's 6d8+8 this time around.

Now let's see if after both 'losing' our weapons they both end up on their backs as well. :roll:

BP - I think you ruled that despite stun the dodge bonus to AC from CE persists while it does not from FD, correct?

Black Plauge

15th of December, 2007, 04:55

I don't think so. Dodge bonuses are clearly lost whenever a character loses their Dex bonus to AC and both fighting defensively and combat expertise clearly provide dodge bonuses to AC and being stunned denies the Dex bonus to AC.

Black Plauge

15th of December, 2007, 09:56

Oh, wait, did you mean after the stun expires? In that case, yes.

Black Plauge

15th of December, 2007, 10:12

Well, that was quick, again. It's all up to the you folks now. Do you want to see Coravel get the chance to dethrone Spikey, or shall Spikey reign supreme.

In either case, congratulations Tash.

Tashalar

15th of December, 2007, 10:13

Yeah exactly - on the succeeding round when the stun expires.

Glad to hear that's the case. I'm curious to see what comes of this... the round can be rather decisive.

Tashalar

15th of December, 2007, 10:18

Woah! Uh... thank you. :)

I didn't expect this to happen really... but once more I failed to take into account what could happen in case of a stun and a trip. Meaning those two last attacks. I had hoped to go for a finishing grapple the next round. But stun really... uh... hurts.

I don't really think Coravel has earned the chance to face Spikey - but I'll refrain from voting myself in this case.

Edit: That was really bad luck the entire match, Slag. :\

SlagMortar

15th of December, 2007, 10:22

Wow, that was disappointing. I didn't expect to beat Spikey twice, but I thought I had a good chance to do it once.

Well played, Tashalar! Spikey was nasty opponent.

Thanks to everyone who participated in the tournament and a big thank you to BP!

Edit: 0 for 3 on save vs stun over the two fights against Spikey. That's not going to get it done.

Tashalar

15th of December, 2007, 10:31

Thanks to everyone who participated in the tournament and a big thank you to BP!
Yes, thanks to BP for putting in all the work and putting up with all our complaints and issues. Oh and questions... which mostly counts for me (ask Link, he feels your pain...). :roll:

A few cheers to all other players as well... this was entertaining, actually really exciting for the most part - and I definitely learned a lot about the 3.5 rules. And since my PnP group(s) won't be switching over to 4th edition any time soon, that actually is of help! :)

I'd be curious to hear how the whole tournament worked out for you, BP, as well as for you other players.

Linklegacy77

15th of December, 2007, 14:58

BP, do you think we should take away Tashalar's permission to ask questions for a while?

Tashalar

15th of December, 2007, 18:51

Uh... let's make a deal. I won't ask BP any questions for a while, okay? :roll:

Come now, Link. By answering my questions you have the gratifying feeling of really helping someone out who does not have the same grasp of rules that you do. Should be awesome.

...

You could even be thankful. *nod* :roll:

********************

Oh, I forgot one thing:

*sprays everyone with champagne*!!

Lune

16th of December, 2007, 00:58

Congo Ratz, Tashalar! :D
Honestly, I wouldn't have figured that Spikey would have been in the final elimination. So this has definately been a learning experience for me as well. I did figure Rakesh would be there and also thought that some of the end competitors would have been our flying halfling friend who left us early and Gork. But things have turned out very interesting and I have learned a lot.

And I have instituted some house rules that have stemmed directly from these matches as well. Thank you, BP, for running this and thank the rest of you for participating. It has been a great match.

Honestly, I'd like to see a match between Coravel and Spikey but I don't want to extend anything longer than needs be so I'm going to sideline for a while and see what others think.

Tashalar

16th of December, 2007, 01:27

Thanks, Lune. :)

Honestly, I'd like to see a match between Coravel and Spikey but I don't want to extend anything longer than needs be so I'm going to sideline for a while and see what others think.Right now it's right on the 'brink' - Spikey would be Champion currently. One vote could change this though.

As I said, I'll refrain from voting for this... I do have a good idea of who would win between the two at this point, but some rolls could always change that. :)

Edit: Actually... I'll cheer for Rakesh. The gladiator who'd fare the best against the largest number of other gladiators imo. :)

Lune

16th of December, 2007, 07:20

I thought that a Rakesh vs. Cloud fight would have been excellent. Not so much for the crowd though. Although the blood the would fly from that cloud....yikes! ;)

Tashalar

16th of December, 2007, 07:57

Not sure if Rakesh would've waded in just like that though, Lune...

Btw - what's the next tournament going to be?

Boomlaor - you up to the task? :)

Darius

18th of December, 2007, 02:29

Congrats Tash!

And let me add my thanks to BP for running the tournament.

Heh, at least my little monk had one (albeit slightly controversial) win.

Lune

19th of December, 2007, 00:14

Hrm...I figured that Rakesh would have stood the best chance of wading right in out of any other gladiator. In fact, I figured it might have been one of his best strategies. He probably stood a decent chance of winning by doing so. I think that both gladiator's damage potential was so great that pretty much the first person to get in a solid hit would have won.

SlagMortar

19th of December, 2007, 01:42

Honestly, I wouldn't have figured that Spikey would have been in the final elimination. So this has definately been a learning experience for me as well. I did figure Rakesh would be there and also thought that some of the end competitors would have been our flying halfling friend who left us early and Gork. But things have turned out very interesting and I have learned a lot.
I definitely learned plenty, too. During character creation, I somewhat discounted Spikey because I didn't realize how high his attack bonus could get or how high the Stun DC was. His attack bonus of +15 on an unarmed strike seems pretty meh until you stack all those buff on it to get it to a respectable +23. I think Rakesh could have beat the flying halfling due to a lack of see invisibility, but I might have missed something.
Hrm...I figured that Rakesh would have stood the best chance of wading right in out of any other gladiator. In fact, I figured it might have been one of his best strategies. He probably stood a decent chance of winning by doing so. I think that both gladiator's damage potential was so great that pretty much the first person to get in a solid hit would have won.
My biggest concern about charging in on Cloud would be a readied trip attack. I think Cloud could easily kill Rakesh in two full attacks, and it would take Rakesh two full attacks to kill Cloud.

Rakesh's operating assumption was that Cloud was a Fighter/Barbarian with a maxed out Listen score and blindfight. With that assumption, Rakesh was going to move silently close enough to blindsense Cloud (60 ft) and ready an action to attack if Cloud charged. If Cloud did not charge, Rakesh would throw in javelins until he didn't think Cloud was readying an action. Eventually, Rakesh would probably try a spring attack with maxed expertise and fighting defensively. Then once Cloud attacked, I figured to try to escape and take to the air to shoot down arrows.

If Cloud immediately charged Rakesh from the beginning - allowing Rakesh to be the first one to get two full attacks - then Rakesh would have probably gone for a straight out fight and hoped he managed to land enough attacks.

Tashalar

21st of December, 2007, 20:26

As it stands, Spikey will remain the Champion. I was quite sure that he would remain Champion in any case since he could attack Coravel flying, concealed and otherwise buffed - and with hustle. He should easily be able to disarm the elf with his six attacks - and then Coravel has lost.

A grapple to finish it probably. It would all take a while due to Coravel's AC, but Coravel is too unflexible to hurt Spikey, really. :)