Discuss - We who are about to die salute you!

[Black Plauge]

The new home of Gladiator Tournament discussion.

[crueldespot]

The Lone Halfling can't do much in his current battle- but he can lodge rule objections. He's going to go down fighting- or at least go down arguing.

1) It seems like you used normal club damage for LH's attack against the chain instead of shillelagh damage, though it might not have made a difference.

2) As I recall from round 1, it is not possible to grapple a mounted opponent, since the grappler cannot enter the victim's square due to the fact that it is occupied by the mount. Andorax has stated the intention to grapple vs LH's ride skill. Is that an option in the rules? I couldn't find any rules in the SRD for grappling mounted opponents. There are rules for tripping mounted opponents. "Pulling a rider from his mount" is a trip attempt. Perhaps Burning Sand should trip LH first in order to get him off the mount (and out of D-Biscuit's square) and then grapple.

[Black Plauge]

1) It seems like you used normal club damage for LH's attack against the chain instead of shillelagh damage, though it might not have made a difference.
The Lone Halfling hasn't cast shillelagh yet. As such, his club is still just a plain old club.

However, I did forget the crowd attitude bonus to damage. Its only two points however, and the chain's hardness is 10, so that wouldn't have made a diffrence.

2) As I recall from round 1, it is not possible to grapple a mounted opponent, since the grappler cannot enter the victim's square due to the fact that it is occupied by the mount. Andorax has stated the intention to grapple vs LH's ride skill. Is that an option in the rules? I couldn't find any rules in the SRD for grappling mounted opponents. There are rules for tripping mounted opponents. "Pulling a rider from his mount" is a trip attempt. Perhaps Burning Sand should trip LH first in order to get him off the mount (and out of D-Biscuit's square) and then grapple.

Burning Sand can try to grapple The Lone Halfling while he's mounted, however, he can't occupy The Lone Halfling's current space since D. Biscuit is already there. As a result, he won't be able to maintain the grapple if he tries to step into The Lone Halfling's space. However, if he tries to pull The Lone Halfling into his space (taking a -20 penalty on his grapple check to do so) instead, he can try to pull The Lone Halfling from his mount. The Lone Halfling, however, gets to use his Ride skill to oppose this check (instead of his grapple check).

Of course, Burning Sand could also trip The Lone Halfling first to unhorse him, and then grapple. In which case there'd be no pelaties to deal with, and The Lone Halfling would use his Ride skill against the Trip attempt, not the grapple.

The other option Burning Sand has, is to grapple both The Lone Halfling and D. Biscuit together. In this case, he'd chose one as his "primary target" and one as the "secondary target" and make two grapple attempts, one against each. Against the secondary target, he'd take a -20 penalty on the grapple check (i.e. pretending he's not grappling the first). If both grapple checks succeed, then the grapple is joined. If either fails, then Burning Sand can't hold. In this case, both The Lone Halfling and D. Biscuit would be using their grapple modifiers to oppose the grapple check.

[crueldespot]

Ouch! You make my head asplode!

What is your reference for grappling someone out of there square at -20 to hit?

[Black Plauge]

I'm extrapolating that possibility out of the text for Improved Grab in the Monster Manual (and its on the grapple check, not the to hit roll, that the penalty applies).

Edit: That's also where I get the possiblity of taking a -20 penalty on your grapple checks to be considered not grappling.

[Lord Twig]

Are we going to have a sign up thread here where everyone can see the characters? Or are they already posted somewhere and I am missing it?

[Black Plauge]

They're still back on 3EBB. I wasn't planning on moving them over (I have copies on my computer that I use when adjucating the matches), but I can if people want them.

[Lord Twig]

Round 3, Match 1.

Well things could be worse for Lily, but they could also be a whole lot better. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20frown.gif

Two things, first Lily damaged Wang with a "Flashy" spell, which I believe gives her +1 to approval. Second, for Lily's tumble impress roll you listed 10+2=12. Lily's bonus to tumble is +19, is that figured in somewhere?

[Black Plauge]

I'll fix the flashy spell bonus.

The "10" in 10+2=12, is the result of the tumble roll made earlier in the same block, which already included Lily's +19 bonus to tumble, and the -10 accelerated movement penalty.

[Lord Twig]

I forgot about the "fool with an illusion" bonus. Cool!

Of course Lily has been caught now. I should have spent more points in Escape Artist. As it stands now she is better off just trying the opposed grapple checks. :\

[tyckspoon]

Hope you don't mind visitor commentary here.. I was reading the old matches, and the attempted longspear burning in Winner's Bracket round 2 match 4 seemed odd. Are you sure hardness is supposed to be applied to energy damage, Black Plauge? If it is, it produces highly absurd situations- a Flaming Sphere, which is capable of only 2d6 damage, could sit directly on top of the typical thick plank (assuming hardness 5) for its entire duration and do no HP damage to it. After the halving, the damage roll would have had to be a 12 to do real damage (11 doesn't work because the default is to round down.) This is particularly strange considering most Fire-descriptors explicitly state they ignite flammables, which an unattended wooden object certainly would be.

This may also just be a foible of strictly applying the rules in the specific case of a fire spell against a flammable; I wouldn't have much problem with a wooden or cloth object suffering no damage from a 2d6 cold source.

[crueldespot]

Yes, D&D is absurd.That's what is so great about it.

Do you really want to introduce realism into a deathmatch between a giant psychic wolf and a magic midgit riding a dog?

[Black Plauge]

Yeah, that bothered me too, but to quote the SRD:

Energy Attacks: Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

Personally, I was going to rule that once it started dealing damage, the spear had caught on fire and the halving no longer applied. However, it never got to the point.

[Darius]

Em... just following along as welll, but doesn't Ok Bok's natural one on the sunder constitute an automatic whiff and subsequent loss of crowd appreciation?

[Black Plauge]

No. A sunder attempt involves an opposed check, in which case the auto miss and hit rules for 1 & 20 don't apply.

[crueldespot]

Hmm... You know, given the Wolverine's reaction, you'd have thought that The Lone Halfling would have used his status as a druid to try and bring the Dire Lion onto his side before trying to bring in more reinforcements.

If the Lone Halfling survives, he will explain in the post-match interview that the commentator's suggestion is hopeless.

By "hopeless" I mean DC20 with a -3 net mod.

The DC for Lone Halfling to adjust the lions attitude from "hostile" to "unfriendly" is 20. He has a +7 mod (druid class levels), but diplomacy and wild empathy require a full minute to use, and there is a -10 penalty for trying to do it faster.

The only way to make friends with the lion faster would be a charm animal spell, but he didn't memorize that because it is against the tournament rules (no visible effects and not personal).

[Darius]

No. A sunder attempt involves an opposed check, in which case the auto miss and hit rules for 1 & 20 don't apply.

Ah right, perfect sense then.

[Black Plauge]

If the Lone Halfling survives, he will explain in the post-match interview that the commentator's suggestion is hopeless.

By "hopeless" I mean DC20 with a -3 net mod.

The DC for Lone Halfling to adjust the lions attitude from "hostile" to "unfriendly" is 20. He has a +7 mod (druid class levels), but diplomacy and wild empathy require a full minute to use, and there is a -10 penalty for trying to do it faster.

The only way to make friends with the lion faster would be a charm animal spell, but he didn't memorize that because it is against the tournament rules (no visible effects and not personal).

I never said the commentators were experts.

[Andorax]

I think the Lone Halfling needs to try his hand at Conjurer's Chess. He's certainly shown himself to be a proficient (and prolific) summoner.

[crueldespot]

I think the Lone Halfling needs to try his hand at Conjurer's Chess. He's certainly shown himself to be a proficient (and prolific) summoner.

Thanks. Prolific perhaps, but hardly proficient. My minions have so far taken over 20hp of damage, but inflicted zero on B.S.

Still, I am glad for the opportunity to exercise this aspect of playing a druid. It has been instructional.

[Andorax]

Throw a "speak with animals" out there, and you're good to go. It's the prep spell of champions for summoning druids.

[Black Plauge]

And it would have helped with trying to make friends with the Dire Lion.

[Lord Twig]

In match 5. I can't see any reason why Kurik would be unable to complete his move. :?

[Black Plauge]

Diaganol squeezing movement to move from H7 to G6 = 15 ft of movement.
Two other diaganol moves (J6 to I7 and F6 to E7) = 15 ft of movement.
4 straight line moves = 20 ft of movement

Total required movement = 50 ft.
Max move for a dwarf during a withdraw action = 40 ft.

Two squares short.

[Lord Twig]

In Loser's bracket match 5. How much subdual damage has Ok Bok taken from her frenzy?

[Black Plauge]

Damn. Forgot about that. What is it, 2 non-lethal damage per round? She's frenzied for 5 rounds thus far so that would make it 10 non-lethal damage.

[Boomlaor]

I think you got Lily's AC wrong in round 4 of the Lily v. Callen match. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a DnD newb. She has mage armor and shield active, and has a dex of 20. shouldn't her ac be 10(base)+5(dex bonus)+4(armor bonus from mage armor)+4(shield bonus from shield)=23, not the 15 you put?

Boomlaor

[Black Plauge]

Callen wasn't striking at Lily, but one of her mirror images. Neither mage armor, nor shield, nor her bladesinger class ability, nor her dodge feat add to the AC of mirror images. They only get the benefit of Dex and size (according to the spell description), and I usually grant them cover too, when its applicaple (though that's not mentioned in the spell description).

However, had Callen been striking at Lily herself, all those bonuses would have gone in, giving her an AC of 27

[Lord Twig]

Yeah, Lily's AC is pretty insane, and she isn't even fighting defensively yet!

Also, in Loser's match 6. Callen has the Mulitattack feat, so his chance to hit with his two claws is +12, not +9. I think this will change one whiff into a regular miss. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20wink.gif

[Boomlaor]

Not that it'll make a huge difference to this point (more's the pitty), but I think you messed up with Burning Sand's current power point total.

So far he has manifested:
Round 1: Claws of the Beast (7) and Bite of the wolf (1) 21 remaining
Round 2: Animal Affinity: dex (3) 18 remaining
Round 3: Psionic Lion's Charge (3) 15 remaining (reported as 18)
Round 4: Expansion (7) 8 remaining (reported as 11)
Round 6: Animal Affinity: str (3) 5 remaining (reported as 8)
Round 9: Animal Affinity: con (3) 2 remaining (reported as 8)

Gotta fight for my favorite gladiator in the tournament!!

Boomlaor

[Andorax]

I thought they were draining slowly...but never had time to sit down and sort that out. Thanks for keeping me honest.

[Black Plauge]

Damn. Miss the deduction a couple of times and things get really off don't they.

[Black Plauge]

Talk about timing. 3d8+11 on a x3 critical will really ruin your day.

[crueldespot]

Talk about a lucky break for B.S.! He was almost out of power points. My next wolverine would have finished him off for sure. ;)

[Boomlaor]

*the crowd gasps in horror as Burning Sand's Glaive separates the Lone Halfling's Head from his Body. Burning sand walks slowly out of the arena, but there is no other motion as everyone else is in shock and mourning. Unseen and barely heard at first, a cry begins and slowly grows as the spectators return to life*

"Bring him back!"
"Bring him back!'
"BRING HIM BACK!!"
"BRING HIM BACK!!"
"BRING HIM BACK!!!!"
"BRING HIM BACK!!!!"

Burning Sand, hearing cheering returns to the arena to take an encore bow, and is greeted with Boos and rotten vegetables.

/ooc Dang! TLH was the coolest one in this tourney. Even though his score wasn't beloved, he should be raised, if only to keep the bracket from getting too messed up. Of course, he would be facing Ok Bok next, so doing this may only be delaying the inevitable.

Boomlaor

[Andorax]

Of all the times to get a crit. *sigh*.

[Black Plauge]

Scheduling Details:

Burning Sand vs. Wang Xiao Yun is scheduled to start on Wednesday.

Sareno will now take on the winner of Lily vs. Callen.

Ok Bok is waiting to challenge the Loser of Burning Sand vs. Wang Xiao Yun.

So really, for the moment at least, we're just waiting for Lord Twig to finish beating himself up.

[Lord Twig]

Huh? I go to post Callen's move today and it seems that he has been passed up. I thought weekends didn't count towards the 24 hour limit?


In any case, since we are just waiting for me I will go ahead and have Callen forfeit. His only chance was if he got a really lucky hit. Lily has more available HPs, a higher AC, higher chance to hit AND 4 images to take shots for her. The most likely result of the match would have been Lily receiving even more crowd approval before the end of the match. :)

[Black Plauge]

Damnit. Screwed up my own 24 hour rule. You should have had until tommorow at 9 am to post Callen's action, not today at 9 am.

If you're sure about having Callen forfeit, Lord Twig, then the Sareno vs. Lily match will also start on Wednesday. However, I'm more than willing to back things up and let Callen have his turn if you want to continue.

[Lord Twig]

No, I'm good. Like I said, I think Lily would win anyway. Plus, it not as much fun playing against myself. It will be interested to see what a Sareno/Lily rematch will be like. I am wondering what obscure piece of equipment Andorax may come up with to thwart Lily. ;)

[Andorax]

You gotta be kidding?!? A rematch with Lily, and this time a guarantee that Ok Bok is the winner's "reward"? Talk about conflicted.

[Black Plauge]

Ok Bok isn't garunteed to the winner. She has to make it past either Burning Sand or Wang Xiao Yun first. Check the brackets. She faces the Round 4 loser before the winner of that match faces the winner of Lily vs. Sareno.

[Chris Chandler]

I'm thinking BS can take Ok Box - that is as long as he can grab her... and keep her grappled. About the time that BS would have to go smaller, OK Box loses her frenzy... It'll certainly be interesting.

[Vaniver]

Chris, I really don't expect BS to stab grabbing. Even so, their grapple checks will be close enough BS won't be assured victory.

Ok Bok can always stagger her rage and frenzy (although frenzy would probably have to be first) to maximize the amount of time she is not fatigued/exhausted.

[Black Plauge]

I've got the Winner's Bracket Match up, but I won't be able to get to the Loser's Bracket Match until tommorow. Sorry Sareno and Lily, but you'll have to wait a bit longer for your rematch.

[Lord Twig]

Wow, if one of the players doesn't post soon in the 4th round Winners match, they are both going to take full defense and run away from each other like little girls. :nod:

Of course it is possible that each is waiting for the other to post first so that they can out maneuver them.

[Black Plauge]

A fact which they can get around by posting intentions (i.e. move towards or away from the opponent, rather than move to C22).

[Andorax]

CRAP. I did post my reply...yesterday! Apparently, it didn't take.

[crueldespot]

The same thing happened to me when LH missed his move. I posted a reply but it disappeared. So I feel your pain. Well, maybe not all of your pain, since it's not like one more summoned wolverine would have turned the tide of battle for me.

[Black Plauge]

Will saves.:D I bet none of you expected to be using that stat very often in this tournament.

[Andorax]

Shrug...figured if I made it, I made it...and if I failed, I failed. I just wish I hadn't misunderstood how long the chains were. I thought I was out of reach of the Shadow Mastif #2.

[Black Plauge]

10 ft chain. It gives medium creatures a fair bit more manuverability than it does large ones.

[tyckspoon]

Aww. I'm gonna miss the Halfling's cheerful and flagrant abuse of free action riding tricks. hmm..if he'd spent those wolverine summoning rounds running away and showing off, he could have gotten liked well enough to be raised.

[Black Plauge]

My apologies for not updating sooner than I did, and for not having posted Lily vs. Sareno yet. I've been caught up in homework this past weekend, and am not quite done yet (even though I was able to squeeze in an update). I'll probably be able to spend some time posting tommorow.

[Andorax]

Don't know about anyone else, but believe me...I thoroughly understand.

[Black Plauge]

Well, Jiriku finally gets to act again.

[Vaniver]

Is it just me, or did we lose the signup sheet with the gladiators' char sheets?

[Black Plauge]

There's a link to it in the archive thread.

[Jiriku]

Well, that's a crapper. See you soon, Vaniver.

[Andorax]

At least he didn't take all those shots at *you*. This could have been over even before you got a chance to post.

[Boomlaor]

More than 24 hours has passed since Black Plague's last post. He takes a full defense action and tries to move away from the gladiators, however he is stopped by anxious spectators and pummeled severely about the head and shoulders. :)

Boomlaor

[Black Plauge]

*smites Boomlaor*

Never mock the DM.;)

[Jiriku]

Hehehehe. True enough Andorax. And if it had been Sareno I was facing, I bet he would have too. I just don't trust that guy. Smiles too much. :P

[Black Plauge]

Well, I finally found the time to get the rematch of Lily and Sareno up. Time to get that match moving so that it'll finish before the Ok Bok vs. whoever match.;)

[Boomlaor]

Burning Sand took a double move to close with Wang (much more than a 5' step). Why did Wang not get an AoO? (question of a DnD noob)

Boomlaor

[Black Plauge]

AoOs for movement occur when you leave a threatened square, not enter one. Since Wang doesn't have reach (or a reach weapon) Burning Sand did not have to leave one of his threatened squares to approach him.

[Lord Twig]

In Loser's match 7, I believe Lily should get a +1 to her crowd score for damaging an opponent with a flashy spell.

[Jiriku]

I may be gone over the weekend. Then again, I may not. If I am, the placement of the international dateline is such that my first chance to post again will be in the wee hours of the morning on Monday night in the United States.

[Black Plauge]

Since the weekend doesn't count towards the 24 hour deadlines, that isn't a problem.

[Lord Twig]

In Loser's match 7. Lily's crowd approval is mistakenly listed as 17.* instead of 19.*.

[Lord Twig]

What happened to the Gladiator's Stables?

[Black Plauge]

Check your display preferences and make sure you're seeing them "From the Begining".

[Lord Twig]

Ah, yeah. That fixed it. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20happy.gif

In Loser match 7. Lily's crowd approval should be 22.etc. She should get +1 more from the last Magic Missile I believe. Possible more if she makes her Dance this round and from the Scorching Ray.

She is such an attention whore. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20laugh.gif

[Jiriku]

BP, I sent you an email at 3rdedition.org a few days ago about getting a new animal companion, but haven't received a response yet.

[Andorax]

Yes, I know...don't post until your turn. I figured for a resignation, it didn't really matter.

Against Lily's spell attacks, Sareno never had a chance to begin with.

[Black Plauge]

Jiriku, I never got the email. Try sending it again or PMing me.

[Black Plauge]

Well, I hope everyone enjoyed their Thanksgiving. I certianly did, even if I didn't do anything constructive with the break.

In fact, its probably because I didn't do anything constructive that I enjoyed it.

Well, time to get things back under way and hopefully wrapped up here. We've just a few matches left, so hopefully it won't take too long.

[Lord Twig]

Might want to send mail to the contestants. It has been a while for them.

I would hate to see one of these later match ups lost because of lack of posting.

[Black Plauge]

Done.

[Black Plauge]

Just to let the spectators know, Jiriku and I are currently in discussions about a replacement animal companion. The match will officially commence once that issue is resolved.

[Black Plauge]

Jiriku's animal companion issues have been resolved. I'm now waiting for him to post his actions. Vaniver, if you'd like to revise your actions based on the presense of the bear, you may do so.

[Lord Twig]

It has seemed lately that about 50% the time, when I go to this site, it is down. Is that normal? Or is this a recent phenomenon?

I was just thinking that it was possible that Jirkiu may have tried to post his turn today and was unable to because the site was down.

[The Hive Custodian]

It's a recent phenomenon. Like someone cast blink on it.

[nightinverse]

I'm sure a displacer beast tried to duel with some blink dogs right next to it.

[Black Plauge]

I've been noticing it too, and with Jiriku having PMed me to say he was having difficulties with his own connection to the internet, I was hesitant to push things forward. However, he's had the weekend and an extra day now and I'd really like to finish this tournament before the New Year, so I'm going to have to push forward.

[Lord Twig]

Yep, too bad I guess. But the show must go on!

[Vaniver]

In light of Jiriku's connection issues, I'd like to request an additional 24 hours for his turn. Although it may cost me the match, I'd really rather not beat Wang because of a spotty connection.

[Black Plauge]

Its not a question of a spotty connection, rather he's in a place where he's paying for access by the minute (some kind of internet cafe if I understood things correctly). As a result he's not getting online nearly as often. However, I will give him an extra 24 hours (until tomorrow, Friday, at the time stamp on this post) to post a round 2 action. If he does post, then I'll revise the round 2 post and Ok Bok will get a chance to revise her round 3 action. If he doesn't, then I'll resolve Ok Bok's posted round 3 action and Wang will forfeit his round 3 action (since the 24 hour limit on that action would have expired were I not allowing the backtrack). I can't really let things go more than that.

[tyckspoon]

Ok Bok should have received a crowd-love penalty for killing the bear, yes? Although it's not likely to have much effect on the outcome of the match..

[Black Plauge]

Yes, she should. I'll correct that.

[Black Plauge]

Merry Chirstmas everybody. I hope you enjoyed your break.

In the interst of getting this tournament moving again, I'm going to declare Wang a match forfeit if I don't hear from Jiriku (either IC or here) before Friday. In the mean time, I'd like the remaining competitors (Andorax, Lord Twig, and Vaniver) to check in here to confirm that they are capable of continuing to post at this point without further interference from the holidays. Once I hear from people, we'll get this show on the road and wrap things up.

[nightinverse]

If Jiriku is out, will you proceed with the scheduled matches or organize a three-member match? Just wondering...

[Black Plauge]

The tournament will procede through the brackets as scheduled.

[Lord Twig]

I have been looking in every once in a while to see if anything was happening. It will be nice to see who the winner will be. Lily has some difficult fights coming up, hopefully she will live. http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20happy.gif

I should be able to post with no problems.

[Vaniver]

I'm still able to post.

[Black Plauge]

I don't have time to do it tonight, but I'll be making the map and posting the next (and last) Loser's Bracket match tomorrow. Lily and Ok Bok should be ready to go.

[Lord Twig]

How is Ok Bok intimidating everyone? If it is the Intimidating Rage feat, it only works on one person and they must be within 30'. Lily is outside of that range when Ok Bok enters her rage.

[Black Plauge]

Well, I certianly misread that feat.

Van, would you care to clarify what your intention was with the intimidate action so that I can fix things in the next update.

[Vaniver]

So it does. I knew that at one point, but it's been a while since I looked closely at Ok Bok's feats.

The intimidation will be against the closest target, i.e. the lion.

[Lord Twig]

Ok Bok's HP should be 18 points higher because of her rage.

[Black Plauge]

Already noted and corrected. Check the update I just posted.

[Lord Twig]

Cool. But I noticed that you only rolled damge for 3 missiles. Lily should get 4 from her caster level of 7.

[Black Plauge]

Oops. Miscounted. Correcting.

[Lord Twig]

Well if nothing else, I have to say that Vaniver is Role-Playing Ok Bok well. Going strait through that lion really cost Ok Bok, but I guess it would be in character. :)

[Lord Twig]

Two things. First, I didn't see a roll to see if Lily's dancing influenced the crowd. Second, Ok Bok should be taking nonlethal damage from her frenzy.

Thanks!

[Black Plauge]

Fixed.

[Lord Twig]

Well looks like Vaniver is a no show.

I am willing to wait a while longer however. We are down to the final combats and I would like to see them played to the end.

If he doesn't post anytime soon, I am wondering about the full defense and run away rule. As a Frenzied Berserker, I don't think Ok Bok can run away. She will just mindlessly move after and attack anybody in range. I believe she would go after perceived enemies first, but am not certain of that.

[Vaniver]

Gah, I had a rules question I was going to ask. I guess I should have PMed it.

[Lord Twig]

Well I am glad you were able to post.

Using your bow, huh? Not something I expected from Ok Bok. This changes things. :)

[Black Plauge]

Well, considering that I myself have been uncharacteristically absent for several days now (so I took an extended long weekend), Van's slight delay is of no importance. I'll be updating shortly.

[Black Plauge]

Vaniver is lucky. His deadline for posting yesterday was while I was in class and after class I remembered something that I had to do for a meeting this morning (which I'm still working on) so I couldn't update the match yesterday. Expect an update just after noon today (the meeting is from 10 to 12).

[Black Plauge]

Next match will start on Monday. Lord Twig and Andorax should be ready.

[Lord Twig]

Couple things.

Ok Bok has Die Hard as a feat. Would she actually still be up? Also, she gets +18 hps from Rage. When she falls unconscious she would lose those hps and die. Lily has no compunction about killing Ok Bok. Ok Bok has killed everyone she has faced and would have killed Lily if given a chance.

It looks like you didn't add the +3 for Lily's beloved status to her attack roll, not that it mattered.

And speaking of rolls... What the heck is up with those rolls!? First four 1s for her last magic missile and then a 1 on her damage with her rapier, not to mention a 2 for her attack. At least the attack wasn't a 1 as well, that really would have sucked!

Come to think about it, Ok Bok's last few rolls have sucked as well. Guess I shouldn't complain. ;)

[Boomlaor]

re: your post in the stables BP (Burning sand would have to be beaten twice, and lily only once), from a spectator's point of view that's boring. Just have a single fight for all the marbles, and lets be done with this tournament (much as I have enjoyed it).

Boomlaor

[nightinverse]

As an avid observer, I am of two minds here. The multiple fight issue, while logical, is dull. However, I also think it would be prudent to stick to the plan.

[Black Plauge]

Die Hard has no effect on non-lethal damage. As a result, the standard rules apply. When non-lethal damage exceeds current hit points, the character falls unconcious. That may seem to be counter to the point of the feat, but that's the way its written.

Rage does not end when a character is knocked unconcious. There are two conditions listed in the description for the end of a rage: 1) its duration expires, 2) the character ends it voluntarily. Knocking a character unconcious does not meet either of these conditions. As a result, Ok Bok's rage continues after she is knocked unconcious (as does her frenzy, though that has no effect on whether she dies or not), allowing tournament clerics to heal her sufficently that she doesn't die when her rage expires.

The tournament was announced as a double elimination tournament. As Burning Sand has no losses as of yet, a loss in the upcoming match would only be his first and would not be sufficent to eliminate him. It would be unfair to Burning Sand to make the up coming match be for all the marbles.

[Lord Twig]

Hmmm... Now that you explain it, I guess that is what it literally says. Just doesn't seem right. Oh well, I will just accept it as a house rule in my own game. :smiling:

As for the rage, it sure would help with the Barbarian's life expectancy. We had always played that you don't die for one round (house rule) so if the barbarian dropped, you KNEW you had to get a cure spell on him before the next round. Kinda has the same effect.

Double elimination is what it was from the beginning, it wouldn't be fair to change it now. We will see if Lily can avoid Burning Sand for two battles. All he needs to do is get a hold of Lily and it is all over. :depry:

[Black Plauge]

Oh, most certianly I agree that the wording of Diehard (and though it didn't matter here, Deathless Frenzy) contain a major oversight that is sorely in need of errata/house ruling. However, in a public tournament like this one, I have to enforce the rules as written for the fairness to all. There's been one spot where I didn't follow that policy (allowing Kurik to have an Adamantine Tower Shield), and I wasn't real comfortable with it once it actually became an issue (though by that time I'd already said the player could have it). Fortunately, I don't think it made a difference (i.e. Ok Bok still won).

[Andorax]

Bah. Let's fight one out, and see if there's even a need for a second!

[Lord Twig]

<grumble, grumble> Well I guess I didn't figure that correctly. I figured it for an automatic jump, but I guess I was going around a corner. :tsk:

[Lord Twig]

Lily danced over to H32 (right out in the open), but somehow she ended up in J32. :)

[Black Plauge]

Oops. I'll fix that. Given Andorax's posted action, I don't think he'd be changing anything as a result of the different position so I'll fix it in the update.

[Lord Twig]

One of these days Lily's mouth is going to get her in trouble. That day may be today. ;)

[Black Plauge]

It seems that the dice want Burning Sand to have one more shot at winning this match.

Now, while I'm fairly certian I know what his action is going to be, I'm going to give Andorax the chance to post it because I'm sure he'll want to add some flair to it.

[Lord Twig]

Okay, I officially have the worst luck ever! This is like Callen's rolling a 1 on an attack that would have ended his match with The Lone Halfling.

I guess the true test of my luck will come from Burning Sand's counter attack.

[Black Plauge]

Bad luck? You're contesting for the Championship. How much better do you think you're luck needs to be?

[Lord Twig]

Well, I like to think of that as skill. ;)

Did you see the private message I sent? You didn't add the +3 to Lily's attack from the crowd bonus. She actually would have hit.

I guess my luck isn't that bad after all!

[Black Plauge]

I saw it. As I noted in the IC thread, since Burning Sand already posted, I'm not going to go back and change the outcome of the previous round. However, since the "luck" seems to be going both ways, it appears to just be a delay of the inevitable.

[Lord Twig]

Not sure how much it will matter since Andorax may be bowing out anyway, but a 16 is a Critical Threat for Lily (Rapier + Improved Critical). So if Lily confirms her Threat (very likely), Burning Sand will be killed outright.

Lily's in character reasons for not pulling her attack are two-fold. First, she knows that she has to take out Burning Sand fast before he gets a hold of her. And second, Burning Sand's casual slaying of the Lone Halfling has removed him from her list of "Good People" that she would be sorry to see die. So while she was not lusting after his blood like she was with Ok Bok, if he did happen to die in the heat of combat, "Oh well!"

[Andorax]

It hardly matters...if he had survived the match, he was leaving in the night anyways, so either way Lily's the champion.

[Black Plauge]

Since it doesn't make a difference, I'm going to leave it as is.

Now that the tournament is over, however, I'd like some feed back on how things went. In particular I'm looking for suggestions on how the rules should be changed for the next time a gladiator tournament is run. Having seen the rules in action, there are definately some things that I'm thinking of changing, but I'd like to hear from the participants and spectators about what they thought didn't work so well and should be different next time.

[Andorax]

One thing grates. Your ruling on applying bonus damage to each missile of a magic missile, or each ray of a scorching ray...even after it was pointed out that a similar precident (Warmage from CA's bonus damage from high Int) works differently. That made spells such as (and paritcularly) magic missile far more powerful than they ever should have been.

[generaljimX]

Personally, I think the damage bonus should apply to just the first attack in a sequence, be it with two weapons, rapid shot, magic missle, or scorching ray. In the case of the last two, apply to the first missle or ray.

Or, with things such as multiple attacks or rays, apply to the first attack to hit. I'm having a really hard time trying to get across what I'm trying to, but if someone understands, they may be able to translate my nonsense(it reads like nonsense to me, and I'm the one writing it. I can only wonder if anyone will understand me.).

[Black Plauge]

The bonus damage was one of the things I didn't like, in particular how it interacted with spells. The original ruling said that the bonus applied to all damage rolls, and those spells had seperate damage rolls, so I didn't want to change things midstream. In hind sight, however, I probably should have. I'm actually thinking that the bonus damage shouldn't apply to spells at all. (I'm also probably going to even further restrict spells, but that's a different issue.)

As for genearljomX's suggestion that the bonus only apply on the first successful hit each round (yes, I did understand his nonsense), I don't like that idea for physical attacks. Bonuses that function like that are generally percision based bonuses. This bonus is a morale bonus. Its that oomph you get from adreniline high that having people cheering for you creates.

[Lord Twig]

I will agree that the damage added to spells was too much. I think it should have only been added once to each spell. Or maybe just to each attack roll. That would mean that Scorching Ray would still get the bonus twice, but Magic Missile wouldn't get it at all.

One of the things I didn't like was the use of the Dragon Blood potions (or whatever they were). I know they were banned after use, but they shouldn't have been allowed even once. Krynn lost because of an item that he couldn't use.

I just think that the contest should not be effected because someone is able to find a loophole in the rules. The whole idea of letting someone effectively cheat, even if it is just once, because they were clever about it doesn't sit right with me.

[Andorax]

Agreed. The Dragonblood potions were over the top. It's a case of my grasping at a technical straw to try to turn an otherwise hopeless match, somewhere I shouldn't have gone.


Another thought...single-action that produces multiple croud bonuses. I'm referring specifically to Mirror Image, though there are other instances. Getting the "fooled by illusion" bonus for EVERY attack that hits an image is over the top. The croud bonus should only have applied once, particularly if after that it became obvious the gladiator was intentionally trying to winnow down the images (not "fooled" at all...that's his intent).

Let's see...what else.

Being mounted = virtual immunity to grappling.

Creatures who go after the nearest opponent, no matter what circumstances, instead of some "logical interpretation" of their behavior. This is a tricky one, as it can also scare up the spectre of DM favoritism with the beasts, but Sareno really did think he had a logical course of action, and that a dire boar wouldn't try to climb up onto a tall platform to pursue him .

Not sure how, but clearer rules on the heights, widths, and corners of the platforms...I wasn't the only one confused by this...and on the lengths of chain and reach of creatures.

I'll post more if they occur.

Oh...and Shadow Mastifs. Burning Sand's victory against an opponent who ran in fear the entire match was just lame.

[Black Plauge]

How do you suggest grappling a mounted character be handled? There are no specific rules on this issue and I tried to follow the rules that are there as literally as possible.

[Lord Twig]

I would just like to say that while we are focusing on the things that were problems, overall the handling of the tournament was excellent.

Thanks!

[Black Plauge]

Speaking of the equipment rules, what did people think of them in general? I realize that some items turned out to be definate no-nos, but what did people think of the rules for items in general?

[Lord Twig]

The equipment in general worked fairly well, but it definitely favored "lighter" builds. So Lily and Callen was never hurting for equipment, but our sturdy Dwarven Defender really could have used Adamant full plate.

Especially with Sunder being as prevalent as it was, an Adamant weapon became almost a necessity. So an axe, shield and full plate gets reduced to adamant axe, shield and breast plate. if you wanted your shield to survive you then were stuck with adamant axe, adamant shield and chain shirt.

It just would have been nice to see some really good "tank" builds.

For other items, it might be nice to just have a list of what is available instead of saying "all of this type of item" and then letting people dig through source books for something that will give them an advantage.

[Andorax]

How do you suggest grappling a mounted character be handled? There are no specific rules on this issue and I tried to follow the rules that are there as literally as possible.

My recommendation is to treat rider and mount as one. Let them oppose the grapple attempt with either the mount or the rider's best grapple or escape, and if they fail, both creatures are in the grapple.

[Boomlaor]

I would suggest using the higher of the rider's ride or grapple skills. If the rider loses the grapple check, he is pulled from his horse into the square the attacker is in, and they are in a grapple.

Boomlaor

[Black Plauge]

While anyone can join a pre-existing grapple, it takes a creature with Improved Grab to draw more than one creature into the grapple, and they take a -20 penalty on the grapple check to bring in the second.

It also takes a creature with Improved Grab to pull a grappled into their space rather than stepping into their opponents.

Since both are already addressed in the rules for a special ability, I don't like these suggestions because they essentially grant everyone some of the abilities of Improved Grab, reducing the relative power level of mosters that have it.

That said, I don't know what to do about it. I understand Andorax's point that being mounted is near immunity to grappling. Under RAW you have to first Trip the opponent to pull them from their mount and the rider can oppose this trip attempt (which is a straight Str check) with their Ride skill (which will naturally increase much faster). This is a really unbalanced check for the one attempting to pull down the rider, even with favorable size modifiers for the attacker. Since Trip size modifiers aren't based on relative size, but on absolute size, the rider gets to ignore their size modifier if its adventageous to do so (i.e. they have a bunch of ranks in Ride). Even the Improved Trip feat does little to alleviate this since it only increases the attacker's Str check by 4. A mounted character who has Ride maxed out compensated for that at 1st level. Additional levels beyond that make it even more likely that they will resist the attempt.

Take the Lone Halfling as an example. His Ride modifier was +19. Compare that to his Dex check to resist being tripped: +1.
Burning Sand, on the other hand had a +8 modifier to attempt a Trip, which he could have increased to +15 through power manifestation (animal affinity to Str and expansion for 1 size category) and to +19 if he had taken Improved Trip. Outside of the tournament rules on size category, he could have added a further +5 to the modifier by using expansion to gain two size categories instead of 1.

Hmm... I seem to have argued myself into a corner here. Some one else care to take over?

[Andorax]

While anyone can join a pre-existing grapple, it takes a creature with Improved Grab to draw more than one creature into the grapple, and they take a -20 penalty on the grapple check to bring in the second.

It also takes a creature with Improved Grab to pull a grappled into their space rather than stepping into their opponents.

Since both are already addressed in the rules for a special ability, I don't like these suggestions because they essentially grant everyone some of the abilities of Improved Grab, reducing the relative power level of mosters that have it.

The only issue I have with this is that it pre-assumes two discrete, separate individuals. A rider and his mount are not entirely the same.

Taken from another point of view, one could say that the grapple attempt is made against one target, who moves into the same space as the rider (and mount), normally illegal, and the mount is automatically drawn into the grapple by virtue of being in the same space (another interpretation, differing obviously from your ruling of "you can't move into the square because someone you're not grappling is there, therefore you can't grapple".

Consider another situation. Rather than a mount, consider instead a familiar. It's another separate, discrete creature. Could the presence of a familiar make you ungrappable for the same reason (can't move in, square's already occupied by someone you're not grappling)?

Of course not...that's ridiculous. But the rider example isn't.


How about this. Give the rider the option. He can either oppose the grapple on his own, in which case the steed is not drawn into the grapple (even though all three temporarially occupy the same space) or he opposes it with his or his mount's check, in which case the steed is voluntarially being drawn into the grapple as well as an "all or nothing". Essentially, the mount is choosing to "automatically join into the grapple" as an out-of-turn action in order to help its rider fight off the attempt.

[Black Plauge]

A familiar is an unfair comparison because most are smaller than their caster, thus posing less of an obstacle to the attacker. A mount is always larger than its rider, so it poses a considerably larger problem.

I'll think about your suggestion, however.