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The Hive Custodian
22nd of April, 2005, 10:16
Note: These rules are meant to be a guideline only. Characters cannot simply create and use firearms using these rules without DM approval.

Updated 8/7/05
Updated 12/6/05

Progress Levels added.
You are now limited to one option in each of certain categories.
Options are no longer stackable.

nightinverse
22nd of April, 2005, 10:19
Okay... I am giving this my tentative approval. As above, all use of it is to be regulated by... me!

ShadowDawn
24th of April, 2005, 16:08
Here's my thought: Mini Uzi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzi

Mini Uzi

Medium, Semi- and fully Automatic (+3), 25 rounds box (+2), 2d4 (-4), 6 lb. (-.5), 30 ft.

DC: 13


I wanted to emulate the Mini Uzi as closely as possible, as I wanted a definitively light automatic weapon for my character. The damage is one level down from the full-sized Uzi, which I figured fitted with the decrease in size- although the caliber of ammunition looks the same from the picture, I doubt there's as much force in the firing mechanism- and a slight decrease in range for the same reason. Same for weight; just a generally scaling-down. Whaddya think?

nightinverse
24th of April, 2005, 16:09
I will deliberate on this.

nightinverse
24th of April, 2005, 16:41
Wait... 6 pounds feels wrong. Make it 5, decrease the magazine to 22. The Uzis have advanced a bit.

Okay, I changed it again, and finalized it. In House Rules.

ShadowDawn
24th of April, 2005, 17:16
Cool, sounds good. Thanks NI.

nightinverse
26th of April, 2005, 14:12
Okay, feel free to suggest more weapons.

Daedalus
26th of April, 2005, 15:09
you dare begin firearm deliberations of any sort without ME?!? LOL

actually, if this is utilizing real reality, the mini-uzi weighs 5.7 lbs. and has a minimum magazine size of 25 rounds, 30 being more common.

but that's not a gun. THIS is a gun.

General Electric Minigun: the ultimate in salvaged weaponry. a lightweight aluminum frame housing a general electric motor and a gatling gun, generally received by use of a downed combat chopper and a really resilient hacksaw. It would then utilize ammunition via a backpack on the wielder containing 1000 chain-fed rounds to the gun's six barrels. Of course, it can fire only in full auto, and provides 11 kg of constant recoil. I wouldn't recommend it for any character with a strength of less than 16. :evil:

Stats:
Large weapon, full auto (only), range 300 meters, 990 round box ammo, 32lbs., 2d6/shot, restricted, military, quasi-illegal.

purchase DC: 85, and woe betide any DM who allows it.

Daedalus
26th of April, 2005, 15:23
And another.

The Technika Magnum 96 Destroyer.

One of the crowning acheivments for the Hungarian Army is this beautiful anti-material rifle. boasting an incredible 5000 foot range, an integral muzzle brake and a 12x scope, as well as 5 14.5x114 mm rounds per magazine, this 6-foot-terror can penetrate an inch of solid steel from a kilometer away.

Stats:

Huge weapon (16), 5,000 foot range (+10), semiautomatic (+2), 5 round magazine (+.5), 57.4 lbs. (+0), Restricted (-1), Military ONLY (-2), +1 attack bonus (representing scope and perfected craftsmanship, +3), 2d10 damage.

Purchase DC: 29 (rounding up).

once again, if you value your game, don't give this to yer players.

nightinverse
27th of April, 2005, 07:33
Ah, but the new Mini-Uzi only weighs 5.5 and has 22 rounds because HALFLINGS invented it!!! See, everything comes full circle.

Those guns aren't looking at all viable, sorry.

Daedalus
27th of April, 2005, 10:16
wait... when was I suggesting rules for any actual game? ;)

and good times were had by all...

nightinverse
27th of April, 2005, 12:57
Heh.

Takkaryx
29th of April, 2005, 13:13
IMI Death Merchant
For when you absolutly, positivly need a fully automatic handgun...

Medium size 2d6 damage
Range Increase x1.5 (+1.5)
Semi+Auto (+3)
Magazine Addition (15) (+1.5)
Restricted (+2) (-1)

DC 18

nightinverse
29th of April, 2005, 13:25
Okay... well. Let me think about it for a second...

60 ft...
2d6...
Semi and Auto...
Mag 15.
Restricted...

DC 18...

I'll add it in a second. I may reduce the range though...

Daedalus
1st of May, 2005, 17:30
Mac-10 SMG. A weapon used globally by terrorist cells. It's easy to see why: a full- and semi-auto fire, 250 foot combat range, a 30-round clip, and a cheap ($800 US) price tag all combine to form one kickass piece of machinery. able to fire 9mm and .45 acp rounds interchangeibly also adds to the reliability of this weapon, a good gun no matter how you look at it.

Medium size, full and semi auto, 250-ft range, ammo: 30 clip, 6lbs., Restricted (+2), 2d6 damage/shot

purchase DC: 26

MAC-10? $800. Time at a range? $5. Thirty rounds? $3.50. Emptying the entire gun in less than a second? Priceless.

nightinverse
2nd of May, 2005, 02:54
I'm considering.

EDIT: Accepted

Takkaryx
2nd of June, 2005, 10:29
INGRAM Special forces

Common for most special forces units, when they want a quiet assassins tool.

Medium weapon 13
Increased damage die +4
Semi auto +2
15 shots +1.5
Restricted -1
Internal Silencer +?

19.5 + ?

Takkaryx
2nd of June, 2005, 10:44
This isn't a firearm, but how much would a bowie knife cost and deal? The knife in the SRD is, I'm assuming, is like a pocket knife. I want somethig a little larger.

Daedalus
2nd of June, 2005, 10:59
first off, yer ingram is gonna be restricted to military personnel only, as with any and all weapons with integral silencers.

The Bowie knife would deal 1d4, same as a dagger. The soldiers defending at Alamo had these knives, and found them to be not only nigh-useless, but also inferior to the enemy's rifle-mounted bayonets. The sole advantage they have is the serrated backside to the blade, which tore flesh nicely, but had the problem of getting lodged in bone. I'd say give it a +1 inherent item bonus, and a +1 to any survival situation in which a sawblade would be useful, but rule that on a botch, (or if yer using the action die stuff, at the cost of a GC's action die) the blade gets caught in its victim, and takes a full round to retrieve once that enemy is downed, or a full round and a successful grapple if you need it while the target's still up.

nightinverse
2nd of June, 2005, 11:10
I must agree with Daed, on both weapons. I'll port them in when I've finalized them.

Daedalus
2nd of June, 2005, 12:59
M1 Carbine
Semiautomatic rifle designed for World War 2. Served admirably for that and is still made and available to citizens today.

Medium, 2d6 damage per shot (13), 455 foot range (+12), Semiautomatic (+2), 15-round magazine (+1.5), nonrestricted

Total purchase DC: 28 (rounded down)

nightinverse
2nd of June, 2005, 13:14
Interesting... I'll see what I can do. A version will be posted in a second.

Doomsmile
3rd of June, 2005, 09:08
By extraplating using the fire-arm design rules, I give you a custom weapon to have been designed by my character:

Small, 1d4 damage per shot, 10 foot range, Semiautomatic and full automatic fire, Box 30 amo, restricted licence, On a successful hit, a hit victim must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 15) or be paralyzed for 1d6 rounds.

Purchase DC:14

I aplied the apropriate cost modifiers to a regular tazer. The autotazer is not something just anyone could show up with: it's a weapon designed and built by my character (a smart hero with a +12 each in craft electronic and mechanical). It may not be very lethal, but that's the point.

nightinverse
3rd of June, 2005, 09:39
I'll consider it...

Takkaryx
7th of June, 2005, 11:46
Referencing from my character, from the SRD:


M16A2 5.56 mm Assault Rifle

2d8 Crit 20 80 ft range Semi & Auto 30 Box Large 8lbs PDC 16 (+2 Res)

Desert Eagle (.50AE Auto loader)

2d8 Crit 20 40 ft range Semi 8 Box Medium 4lbs PDC 18 (+1 Lisc)

nightinverse
7th of June, 2005, 12:02
Why?

nightinverse
13th of July, 2005, 16:52
So... did you exhaust your ideas?

Doomsmile
14th of July, 2005, 02:14
Tired of people mocking the old derringer pistol's lack of penetrating power (Oh my gosh! At point blank range, that thing could pierce the skin!), some gunsmith of questionable sanity converted a derringer to fire .50 calibur machine gun ammunition. The kickback from this weapon is just as likely to rip your hand off as to blast a hole in what you're shooting, but if you brace it with both hands, it's a scary little weapon. Especially for a derringer.

.50 Calibur Derringer
Small pistol
2d12 dmg
15ft Rng
4lbs
Restricted Use (need the licence for the amo, not the gun)
Purchase DC 18.5

I don't actually intesnd to use one of these things, but you were looking for ideas...

nightinverse
14th of July, 2005, 03:34
Heh. That's funny.

Doomsmile
10th of August, 2005, 05:13
This new shotgun stuff was too good to pass up, so I had to introduce this blast from the past...

Blunderbuss
Large longarm (shotgun)
2d10 dmg
30ft Rng
16lbs
Restricted Use
Purchase DC 13.5

I think it would be best (though not covered in the firearms design rules) to have the blunderbuss' ammunition type be 1 shot internal. If this is so, the gun should probably be only purchase DC 12 or 13.
Now to design rules for using classic blunderbuss rock-salt ammo...

nightinverse
10th of August, 2005, 12:02
Hurm...

Daedalus
10th of August, 2005, 18:11
a blunderbus and a .50 cal derringer.

Where to begin? The standard for a Derringer is a .17 cal bullet. it fires four of them, at once. During the late 1800's, one man, once, retrofitted his derringer to fire four .387 magnum rounds. Each individual round stuck out about a millimeter from the barrel of the gun. a .50 cal round? good lord, man, that's not even possible.

And the blunderbus is fine, and the game (I believe) already contains rules for rock salt rounds. However, the purchase DC of the gun should not, given the current rarity of the weapon, be decreased.

Just my two cents.

nightinverse
10th of August, 2005, 18:24
And a fine two cents they are.

Doomsmile
11th of August, 2005, 02:29
That there drringer, as I had said was "heavily modified." It only fires one bullet at a time and only hold two shots instead of four.

nightinverse
11th of August, 2005, 03:51
Yes, but it's still... it's not really a derringer. I approved it, but it needs another name.

Doomsmile
11th of August, 2005, 06:46
.05 calibur Sluga', maybe? Custom (Kustum?) Derringer? I dunnow.

Daedalus
11th of August, 2005, 07:49
Howsabout the catchall term for any 50 cal handgun?

Hand Cannon.

nightinverse
11th of August, 2005, 08:41
No... too simple.

Takkaryx
12th of August, 2005, 14:54
And if you ever, ever try to convince me that you will duel-weild Desert Eagles, I will shoot you through your computer. Or, laugh insanely after you shatter every bone in your arm after fireing.

nightinverse
12th of August, 2005, 15:41
Thc?

The Hive Custodian
12th of August, 2005, 16:28
Hey, I don't know nuffink about guns, and I didn't write the rules. I just analyze 'em.

DaisyStrikesBack
12th of August, 2005, 17:36
Harold's Halfling Arms:
Cuz big folks can't make shi!t.
HA3-Giantslayer, aka The Angry Mother (never mess with a halfling mother)

For when one gun just doesn't cut it.

Tiny, 2d4 damage, 30ft range, semiautomatic, 15 box ammo, 1lb. DC: 16

Or, looking for a little more punch? Why not try...

HA- Outrider Special, aka Vorpal Slingshot

Tiny, 2d6 damage, 30ft range, semiautomatic, 6 box ammo, 1lb. DC 20


Both restricted, but if a halfling wants one, all they need are connections.

Daedalus
12th of August, 2005, 17:41
And if you ever, ever try to convince me that you will duel-weild Desert Eagles, I will shoot you through your computer. Or, laugh insanely after you shatter every bone in your arm after fireing.

Actually, DEagles can be dual-wielded quite effectively, assuming you use their .40 cal ammunition setting as opposed to the standard .50. In fact, if anything, the israeli take on H&K's RDBS (Roller Delayed Blowback System) and usage of a compressed gas action as opposed to the standard spring-op system will greatly decrease the recoil of the pistol to far below standard .40 cal guns, as the system is designed to deliver .50s, causing accuracy and refire rate to jump dramatically. However, .40 cal magnum rounds are rather difficult to come by, so yer probably better just going .50 and carrying an extra clip instead of dual-wielding.

Well, I have the official name for the .50 Derringer (ie, if it went to production, this is what would be printed on the side): PP50MDe (Pocket Pistol .50 Modified Derringer

Daedalus
12th of August, 2005, 17:54
Harold's Halfling Arms:

I call foul! Ho wam i supposed to mercilessly nitpick the effectivness of a firearms game-stat representation when the weapon being presented isn't real?! LOL

Daedalus
12th of August, 2005, 18:17
Y'know what? I'm bored, so I'm gonna begin listing off my personal naming style for firearms.

The style is as follows: type-calibur-version-manufacturer
Types are:
PP (pocket Pistol)
SA (Side Arm)
HR (Handgun- Revolver)
MP (Machine Pistol (SMG))
SR (Sniper Rifle)
AR (Assault Rifle)
SG (Shotgun)
there are probably more: will update as I think of them.
As for rounds, the standard caliburs are:
.22
.38
.387
.40
.44
.45
.50
(NOTE: for those who didn't know, a round's calibur is its diameter in inches; ie a fifty-cal round is half an inch wide. Also, different countries use different round measurments, such as the 9mm, which is a round that's 9mm wide. And I won't even get started on shotguns.)

Version. Generally, the weapon follows a simple alphabet system for major modifications, with minor changes being denoted by numbers. Generally, these standard factory modifications don't go beyond C-9. However, special ordered weapons may recieve a different number, such as the MP5N, or Machine Pistol 5 Navy, a modification specially ordered from H&K for the US Navy.

Manufacturer: Pretty straightforward, an abbreviation of the name of the company or project group that made the gun, such as H&K, S&W, and IMI (Heckler and Koch, Smith and Wesson, and Israeli Military Industries, respectively.

Now may be a good time to state that not every, and in fact very few, manufacturers adhere strictly to this style, but generally all of the aforementioned information will be included in some form or another by the various companies, and if I ever wind up in firearms design, I'll use this style.

Oh, and one more thing. If a firearm has EX either as a prefix or a suffix, that generally means that the firearm in question is experimental.

So, If I've just designed a .45 calibur sidearm and my project group's name was Daedalus, I would call it the EX-SA45ADae

The Hive Custodian
13th of August, 2005, 04:16
Question: How good are the weapon representations in the core rules?

Daedalus
13th of August, 2005, 05:08
pretty good, though I'd recommend changing ammo types from 'box' to 'clip'. A Clip generally carries up to 30 rounds, while a box magazine seldom carries fewer than 100.

Doomsmile
13th of August, 2005, 16:40
100 shots? Mmmmm... Toasty.

Daedalus
13th of August, 2005, 16:58
the funny thing is, generally, a gun designed to fire box mags will generally chew through the rounds about as fast as a gun designed to fire clip mags. Boxes are generally for heavy machine guns, due to the magazine's inherent weight, while clip guns are lighter, more accurate, and in general far more effective.

nightinverse
13th of August, 2005, 18:13
Okay. I'll port and approve the Halfling guns later, DSB.

Daed... why the hell didn't you join this game? Every modern/post-modern game needs a gun nut.

Ah, clips.

Daedalus
13th of August, 2005, 18:28
heh. Mostly, 's because of a combination of not looking for it, lack of the D20 modern book, and my reluctance to gen a character.

Although if you'd have me, I'd love to join...

If you'd like to bring the book and a character sheet tomorrow, I'd have no problem with genning a good gun-nut.

Doomsmile
14th of August, 2005, 02:12
the funny thing is, generally, a gun designed to fire box mags will generally chew through the rounds about as fast as a gun designed to fire clip mags.

Mmmmm.... Toasty. ....um, toastier?

The Hive Custodian
14th of August, 2005, 04:03
Daedalus: Actually, I don't think any of have the D20 Modern book. We're all using the MSRD found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd.

nightinverse
14th of August, 2005, 06:42
Yar, and you can join when you're done, I'll just need to intro you in some way.

Doomsmile
14th of August, 2005, 07:44
I used the SRD and scratch-built my character sheet in a way that made the most sense to me. Using notepad.

nightinverse
14th of August, 2005, 08:03
I use Word, myself. Formatting doesn't stick, but oh well.

Daedalus
16th of August, 2005, 16:59
But back to what this forum was built for.

Guns.

Luger P-08
Originally built for German soldiers in WWI, the Luger is a pistol with a well-known and bloody noteriety, most of which is completely deserved by this pistol, the first handgun to fire 9mm rounds.

Small handgun, semiautomatic, 8+1 clip magazine, range 30 ft., Unrestricted, 2d6 damage. Purchase DC: 15

(Daed's pointless gun tip of the day: under clip, one may notice that I listed 8+1. now, why shouldn't I say 9? Simple. the +1 refers to the fact that this gun can hold a round chambered, meaning that while the clip can only hold 8 bullets, the gun can hold one of its own. Therefore, those going into combat may load a clip, cock the pistol, then unload the clip, and reloading it to capacity, allowing one more shot than normal. This feature has been useful to many a soldier who, while reloading, was attacked by the enemy. They were able to get that last shot off with the enemy completely unaware, as the clip was out of the gun when the trigger was pulled.)

Daedalus
18th of August, 2005, 06:03
I just came across this gun and thought it was awesome.

Medusa Model 47
A lovely six-shot revolver, the medusa carries 9 rifling grooves, istead of the normal 7 for revolvers, making it extremely accurate. But that's not why it's such a great gun. The Medusa has a specially designed cylinder that can fire any caliber round up to .357. That's right. Everything from .18 derringer, to 9mm NATO, all the way up to .357 magnum, this gun can shoot them all, interchangeably.

Stats: Damage 2d6, small, rng. 30ft, 2lbs., six shot cylinder, +1 attack, semiautomatic, purchase DC: 18

nightinverse
18th of August, 2005, 06:09
I'll add that in a second.

Doomsmile
27th of October, 2005, 12:26
(Okay, I just saw these things on the History channel. I didn't catch the official name, but
the police have been tinkering with them. since this is near future and we've got engineers
working on cutting-art, state-of-the-edge technology, it isn't very far-fetched at allhttp://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley%20-%20happy.gif)

Compressed Air Rifle:
The first prototype designed by an aircraft ejection-seat company (it's true!), this adaptable weapon uses compressed air to propell the bullet instead of gunpowder. The addition of a range-finder and a small number of microchips allows the weapon to fire the slug with just the right force to hurt but not risk lethality, though this option could concievably be disabled by monkeying with the gun at the risk of ruining it.

Large longarm
2d8 dmg
60ft Rng
8lbs
6 Internal Magazine
Licenced Use
Purchase DC 19?
This weapon deals subdual damage, though will deal lethal damage if it scores a critical hit (oops.)
This weapon is quiet and flashless, thus counts as having a surpressor.
This weapon grants +1 bonus to hit.

Daedalus
27th of October, 2005, 16:49
I once fired one of those. It was a rifle brought down to a rifle range I was shooting at by this guy who worked down at Lockheed. He was giving everyone at the range a chance to shoot it.

I gotta tell you, these things are really great. Don't believe that nonsense about non-lethality; the rifle I shot flashlessly, soundlessly, accurately, and recoilessly shot a 2.5 MM pellet with the force of a .38 rifle round.

The only drawbacks to this thing are its limited range and low air capacity. The rifle the man at the range had could fire about fifty times before it needed to be repressurized by a CO2 tank he had in his backyard. And the max range is about 120 feet, give or take.

But this gun could very easily be made into an assassin's weapon: Simply change the parts to plastic or wood instead of metal, retrofit it to make an easily assembled breakaway gun, and carry around a pocketfull of pellets. Which are aluminum, about the size of a dime, except a little thinner.

Oh, but DS, you're wrong about the internal magazine, unless you're talking about AirSoft guns, which wouldn't hurt a fly. Compressed Air Rifles have thusfar all been bolt-action single-shot guns, as the build of the pellet demands that.

Doomsmile
27th of October, 2005, 17:25
I used internal magazine to represent having to replace the air tank. One could concievably have a magazine that drops a pellet in, then closes, probably using a bolt-action-like motion. Or something. I don't know how modern guns work.
I can easily describe how a musket works, though.

Daedalus
27th of October, 2005, 17:46
The way that clips work is as follows, at least in most guns: You manually load the weapon by pulling back on the slide, unblocking the chamber and allowing the spring-loaded clip to load the first round, storing it in the chamber. For a recoil action pistol, when the gun is fired, it uses the kinetic energy of the backblast (or recoil) to pull back the slide, ejecting the spent brass casing through a cut notch in the side and accepting a new round in its place.

Pretty simple, really. Just a matter of two springs and some kinetics.

Doomsmile
27th of October, 2005, 17:51
Ah. So you think a box would be more appropriate? It seems it doesn't use a tank, so how does it keep the compressed air, anyway?

nightinverse
28th of October, 2005, 09:25
Mythbusters made an effective umbrella gun of this sort.

Doomsmile
28th of October, 2005, 09:28
I don't know about an umbrella gun, but I want one of those umbrella helicopters, like the Penguin had in that batman movie? That guy had so many cool umbrellas.
D**n... I grabbed the cute one...

nightinverse
28th of October, 2005, 09:47
It made the cut, the lethal version. Now, for the non-lethal!

Doomsmile
28th of October, 2005, 09:56
I'd have though it having negligable kick-back would grant +1 to hit.. never mind. I'm just happy enough to have it. I am totally aplying for a licence and buying one of these when we get past the Factory Fame.

nightinverse
28th of October, 2005, 09:57
All of the titles will be interesting, I promise.

Daedalus
28th of October, 2005, 15:04
The tank is built integrated into the body of the gun itself, just below the barrel. It's safe there, because the shots give off little to no heat. The gun itself looks exactly like a bolt-action hunting rifle.

stealthbanana
16th of November, 2005, 11:07
I figured that since Iím going to be in this game, I'd pose a mechanical question dealing with the d20 system and it's treatment of bladed weaponry in a modern setting.

Knives kill far more effectively then guns firing standard munitions. I state the latter part of that sentence so folks don't shove AP and hollow point rounds down my throat.

Anyway, I find it incredibly illogical that a 6-8 inch serrated combat knife only does d6 damage. That, to put it crudely, is bullshit. A well placed shot from a firearm, or more rarely a random shot, can do severe damage to internal organs. A random slash from a knife can damage several organs, rip blood vessels and major arteries apart, cause more damage to the epidermis, and hurt a lot more than a bullet from a gun. I am, of course, leaving automatic weaponry and non-standard munitions out of the equation at this time.


Now I understand that it is a melee weapon and they have to take into account the fact that the man with the .38 special can put two to three rounds into a melee combatant before he can even close a ten foot distance.


To me, that does not translate to a decrease in damage. Knives should deal a good deal more than 1 to 6 points of damage, adjusted for strength, but I have no idea how to implement this.


My first suggestion would be to just up the damage of knives a die step and leave it at that. The difficulty in approaching an opponent armed with a ballistic ranged weapon would still reflect the reduced effectiveness of the gun.


My latter suggestion would be to implement a rule found in the new Serenity game dealing with guns to the head, knives to the throat, and other one hit kills.

Simply put, no attack roll is needed, the damage is automatically critical, and a fortitude save must be made to remain standing and aware. This is similar to a coup de grace, but a bit more realistic.

As I finished this post, I realize that it may not be appropriate for this particular thread. I will go hunt for a rules thread now.


And before anyone questions my credibility, I have fired every manner of firearm from the six shooters of old to todayís modern automatic weaponry. I have trained in knife fighting, kendo, and martial arts. I've been shot too. Long story. The getting shot didn't hurt nearly as much as the knife used to dig out the bullet. Hell, even the needle work hurt more.

EDIT: Curse word and it's horrible formatting.

Doomsmile
16th of November, 2005, 11:40
First off, speaking in pure mechanics here, 1d6 damage is reserved for blades a foot of more in length, such as a short sword. Second, while a slash can cause a great deal of bleeding, this doesn't instantly kill your opponent. A good stabbing or piercing blow can cause system shocks and all that nastiness.
Thirdly, the most vicious damage I have ever seen in d20 modern (not counting running someone over with a Dodge Neon) was with a melee weapon. A katana to be percise. A two-handed chop and a bit of power attack does horriffic damage. Seriously, this thing was doing about the same average damage as a light .50 sniper rifle being used one-handed by a strength-heavy character.

Takkaryx
16th of November, 2005, 12:33
I agree with SB.

nightinverse
16th of November, 2005, 15:24
Okay, let me address this.

This became the correct thread, for here the d6 knife died once at my hands.

In this case, neither Takkaryx nor I are objective, however, I have the luxury of being GM while he is not. That said, I am, once again, taking his opinion under advisement.

I have lesser personal knowledge of guns and bladed weapons, though I do have some. I have successfully missed a target at 10 yards and shot out the wire holding it. I have also successfully suffered puncture and slashing wounds, so I can see where SB is coming from on purely that.

I would argue the issue of bone structure, except that my case is specific. The gun will always be more effective than the knife in an attack to the chest because a slug can penetrate bone, and a slash requires a lot more luck to do so. It just so happens that a number of the major organs are in the upper torso, however, he is right, it makes little sense. You will die from a slash across the kidneys, more surely than a shot through the lung. However, both examples fall apart when you encounter a shot from the side which punctures all tissue in a line, possibly severing the spinal column. I'm sure none of us have suffered such damage.

We are talking about slashing versus piercing. THC and I had a discussion about this in '00, where we came to a conclusion that bludgeoning trumps all and left it at that.

It's time to resolve this.

Piercing wounds: Difficult healing, varied infection rates, lesser direct damage.
Slashing wounds: Simple healing, lower infection rate based on depth, greater direct damage.
Bludgeoning wounds: Simple healing, very low infection rate, greatest direct damage.

It's my job to define how each form acts.

I may consider the die-type raise, providing I can get a majority from the remaining players; that is to say:

DS
DSB
S_L
THC
Daed
SD

If one doesn't reply in a day, his vote is forfeit and the pool gets smaller. In a tie, I'll grant it in view of Takk and SB's votes.

As far as I can see, the revised coup de grace is perfect. I'll implement it as soon as I'm done doing my rounds.

The Hive Custodian
16th of November, 2005, 16:54
Okay, after my computer nearly exploding on me, let's try this again:

We are talking about slashing versus piercing. THC and I had a discussion about this in '00, where we came to a conclusion that bludgeoning trumps all and left it at that.

I honestly don't remember that conversation. However, I believe

running someone over with a Dodge Neon

would count as bludgeoning.

As for the greater debate at hand:

I can't honestly say I have experience (from either end) in any weapon deadlier than a pillow. As much as a few of you may consider me the deadliest man with a pillow among the residents of a certain room, I don't think that really has much relevence here.

What I do have, though is the MSRD. In ArcanaEquipment.rtf, nearly all of the melee weapons were essentially copied verbatim from Dungeons and Dragons. (Incidentally, this is also the file where special ammunition types can be found. It would seem that they would categorize the effects of hollow point bullets under frangibles, according to Wikipedia.) Most of the weapons in plain 'ol msrdequipmentweaponsandarmor.rtf are the same as well. Except:

Katana does 2d6 instead of the 1d10 it does in D&D.
Three-section staff does 1d10/1d10 instead of 1d8/1d8 for a comparable D&D weapon.

So, it would seem that there is some precedent for increasing the die type of weapons from their archaic counterparts. Is this due to materials, or the value of a hit point in each game? I can't claim to know, but the precedent is there. And why penalize a melee character if they don't want to use a katana or a three-section staff?

Therefore, solution:

Promote all melee weapon dice by one die type, except the chainsaw (how the hell do you wield a chainsaw effectively?), katana, and three-section staff, which already got their dice promoted.

Promotion series:
1
1d2
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8 or 2d4
1d10
1d12 or 2d6
2d8
1d20 or 2d10 or 3d6 or 4d4
2d12 or 3d8 or 4d6 or 5d4
4d8 or 5d6 or 7d4
2d20 or 4d10 or 6d6 or 8d4
4d12 or 6d8 or 8d6 or 10d4
8d8 or 10d6 or 14d4

Bold dice have a slightly higher (but I wouldn't say overpoweringly so) average than the rest.

Now this gives me an idea... melee weapon design rules.

My latter suggestion would be to implement a rule found in the new Serenity game dealing with guns to the head, knives to the throat, and other one hit kills.

Simply put, no attack roll is needed, the damage is automatically critical, and a fortitude save must be made to remain standing and aware. This is similar to a coup de grace, but a bit more realistic.

Could you clarify this? In what situations, exactly, would this take place?

ShadowDawn
16th of November, 2005, 17:36
I don't know much about internal organs or such, but I can at least give this a try...

So, here's my understanding of how a knife works as compared to a bullet. A bullet has much more force on average and is able to go all the way through a target; knives cannot do this unless the wielder is strong enough to punch the hilt through the target. A bullet's force is also significantly more localized, allowing it to go through the ribcage while a knife require significant skill to slide between the ribs to reach the internal organs. However, bullets are significantly easier to heal from if they don't hit any vital organs and often wind up stopping the majority of the bleeding from a wound on their own. With a knife, on the other hand, you're making a slashing motion that is designed to cover as much of the target as possible, resulting in the rupture of arteries and a much larger chance of hitting vital organs, even if the damage per square inch is less than with a bullet. Also, because a knife does not remain in the target after slashing, it doesn't stop the bleeding at all, leaving the target free to bleed profusely, much more than in a single localized bullethole. However, the bullet is more apt to cause internal bleeding because of depth of entry.

As I see it, there's a few ways to accomplish this. Using what I've said, knives could have the same damage but a continuing bleeding damage, which would certainly make Jens more useful. This would also force close combats to be faster as the whole huge AC vs. low attack bonus would allow the person who hit once to leave his enemy bleeding while he goes into total defense. Tactics-wise, this makes absolute sense: if I stab you once, I don't really have to do so over and over, I just have to avoid being stabbed myself. This is fairly simple to implement but doesn't really cover the effect of blood loss on an area, like shooting with an arm that was just hacked open. Localized damage gets pretty insane though. On the other hand is bullets relative to knives. Internal bleeding could have an X% chance per bullet wound of happening--which makes automatic weapons much more formidable in the long run-- requiring surgery after the adventure. The need for accuracy in hitting target areas could either give a bonus to the defender's AC or reduce damage by a step if the attack only barely hit, representing a hit in the organ-less area of the stomach for example. In the long run, it depends how complex we want to be. Personally, I'd be inclined to make a proficiency feat for close combat weapons (or perhaps a weapon focus feat) that includes the ability to cause the bleeding. This also injects the idea of specialization, as not every criminal knows how to use a knife as well as he does a gun. Frankly, if knives require even half the skill of fencing, a n00b is extremely apt to have no idea how to fence and is reluctant in attacking and only graze the target.

My personal preference: bleedage per round for specialists, leave bullets as is. To make sure the CC rules aren't used in a way that doesn't make sense with d20 Modern, we may need to learn squad tactics for SWAT or CT teams to figure out how to maximize firepower against CC enemies.

The Hive Custodian
16th of November, 2005, 17:57
That would be a tradeoff between simplicity and realism. Generally, the rules side with simplicity as far as hit points and damage goes. Are we willing to go against that?

stealthbanana
16th of November, 2005, 18:22
THC: The coup de grace action I dicatated earlier would occur when the attacker has the defender with a gun to his head, a knife to his throat, etc. There is no easy way to get out of that situation, save for a good amoutn of luck, so we can rule out the possiblity of a counter action by the defender. Thus, if an attacker has a severe advantage over a defender (knife to throat, eye, stomach, gun to head or stomach, etc), the attacker may take his attack action to deal full critical damage to the defender. The defender then must make a FORT save with a DC of X + the damage dealt, X being a multiple of five no higher than 15. I would say a DC of 10 + the damage dealt is fair.

ShadowDawn: While a bullet does have more force behind it, that very fact works against it. If a bullet impacts a target in the side and blows out his back, there is very little actual damage done. It hurts a lot, it bleeds a lot, but the person who was shot can still act and operate normally (assuming he has some combat experience). A slash from a serrated knife to that same side causes more direct damage, as a large swath of skin is ripped to shred, more blood vessels are destroyed, and it hurts more as there are more pain receptors being struck.

I would be happy simply with my revised coup de grace ruling, but THC's idea to boost each melee weapons die by one step would also be good.

The Hive Custodian
16th of November, 2005, 18:44
I'm still going to make those design rules. God I love writing design rules.

I shall post more tommorrow.

Doomsmile
16th of November, 2005, 19:20
Promote all melee weapon dice by one die type, except the chainsaw (how the hell do you wield a chainsaw effectively?), katana, and three-section staff, which already got their dice promoted. I would suggest making this only aply to people profivient in the use of the weapon in question and archaic weapons. If these weapons are deadly when used properly, it requires you know how to use the weapon to deadly. Unlike me.

And if you're going to modify the coup de grace, I'd like to propose that a coup de grace with a subdual weapon, it should knock out instead of kill the opponent. And maybe a coup de grace with a stun gun causes automatic failure on the save and paralyzed for 1d4 minutes instead of rounds. JaT.

Daedalus
16th of November, 2005, 19:44
I actually like SD's suggestion more than THC's, as bullets are designed to cause their damage all at once, while knives and other blades have their primary use in causing injury over time, as opposed to all at once. Here's what I suggest:

Whenever you hit an opponent with a knife, roll D20 + initial damage dealt vs. an opposing Reflex check. If the attacker succeeds, the target starts bleeding. If the defender succeeds, he managed skirt the worst of it and doesn't start bleeding.

If you're bleeding, you can do a few things:

1. you can spend your turn pretty much doing nothing, in which case you take one point of bleeding damage and are entitled to a Fortitude check (vs. original start-bleeding roll) to see if your system can successfully clot or stymie your blood flow.

2. you can continue strenuous activity (moving more than five feet in a round, attacking, defending), in which case you take 1d4 damage,

3. you can actively try to stop the blood flow (taking 1d2 damage and 1d6 subdual due to fiddleing around with an open wound). If you choose to do this, roll a Heal check at -2 for performing on yourself vs. a DC of 5 + initial damage. This provokes an attack of opportunity, but keeps you from bleeding anymore from that wound. This is a full round action. If another character is administering the care, you don't take the d2 damage, and the d6 is reduced to d4 subdual, and the medic in question doesn't suffer the -2 penalty.

There may be a variant that involves bullets. In this case, I would suggest that the check be a fort save against a DC 10.

So, for example, Jack and Thug 1 are facing off. Thug 1's got his knife, and Jack's got a pistol. Somehow, 1 has managed to get within pokin' distance of J. 1 takes a swipe with his knife, scoring a hit and 5 damage. The thug rolls a 17 on his Bleed check, modified to a 22. Unfortunately for J, he rolls a measly three and starts bleeding.

On his turn, J takes a five foot step back and take a potshot at 1, scoring a glancing blow off of 1's shoulder, dealing 7 damage. 1 immediately rolls a fort. save, DC 10, or starts bleeding. He gets a 9, and begins to bleed. At the end of his turn, J takes 1d4 damage.

1 now takes a five-foot step behind a dumpster for cover. That's non-strenuous activity, so 1 takes a point of damage and gets to roll his save. Since he was wounded due to a gunshot, he rolls fort. vs. DC 10. He gets an 11, and stops bleeding.

Jack grabs his roll of EZ Gauze from his medkit and begins trying to stop the bleeding. He immadiately takes 1d2 damage and 1d6 subdual for the attempt, then rolls a Heal check at -2 vs. a DC of 10 (five base plus five for initial damage). He gets a 12, and stops bleeding. He then takes his five foot step and gets ready to shoot that jackass what poked 'im.

So, whatcha think?

Doomsmile
16th of November, 2005, 19:55
I would like to point out that simply a constant flow of 1 point of damage per round is extremely powerful. Seriously, I experimented with wounding weapons in their 3.0 verison, and they were, mechanicly, both horribly effective (against a giant, even!) and a pain to work out, as you had to keep track of how many wounds were bleeding at any given time, and this is without rolling dice, it was simply 1 damage, not a die of damage.
Also, I should point out that a bad gunshot would will bleed terribly as well.

Daedalus
16th of November, 2005, 20:03
Yes, but the point here was to balance the knife to the gun, and it is quite a bit easier for your systems to handled a gunshot wound as compared to a knife slash.

Besides, I've built in multiple ways to stop bleeding, including one that just involves doing nothing, and if you're lucky it's entirely possible to not suffer from bleeding at all.

Daedalus
16th of November, 2005, 20:31
Katana does 2d6 instead of the 1d10 it does in D&D.
Three-section staff does 1d10/1d10 instead of 1d8/1d8 for a comparable D&D weapon.

1. The Katana gains two points of potential damage, but bear in mind that in D&D it was automatically a masterwork weapon. It is not a masterwork weapon in Modern D20. rather, it's just the replacement for the Greatsword.

2. there's really no comparable weapon to the three-section staff, though I'm sure you're thinking of the dire flail. The staff really is strong enough in reality of its own accord to be a d10/d10 weapon, and a dire flail is not. A three-section staff is also really, REALLY hard to use properly.

Doomsmile
16th of November, 2005, 21:40
1d4 automatic damage a round is a lot. Especially considering that in d20 systems, characters tend to get hit several times before they stop fighting. 1d4 damage per round may not seem like a lot to some, but 3d4 damage a round is a lot for any character. And, let's face it, the knife and the gun are not balanced foes. There's a reason knives are only used as last resort weapons these days- guns are better! If you jump out from around the corner and stab somone in the back, they stand a good chance of living. You jump out from around the corner and shoot someone, they don't stand such a good chance of living.
As for the ways to avoid/stop the bleeding, they are balance-wise somewhat rediculous. On one hand, you have a fortitude save at a DC that's normally going to be unpassable by non-fightery-types. On the other hand, you have an option that will deal damage (I don't get how that works exactly. Maybe 1d4 subdual with a chance to tough it becuase it hurts, but that's have to be a really nasty wound for putting some cotton and gause on it to deal damage to the character). Let's compare these to the wounding weapon enchantment from D&D 3.0, an enchantment deemed worth a +1 of the weapon: the hit opponent takes 1 damage per round (stacking). Can be stopped with a DC 15 heal check or any hit-point restoring spell. This is for magicly enhanced bleeding. Mundane "gun' cut'cha' boy!" bleeding shouldn't be harder (and more lethal) to stop and deal more damage. And that wounding enchantment was lethal. I'm telling you, the stock character I built and outfitted with this wounding stuff was inflicing insane amounts of harm on its opponents just with the bleed damage.
Another point, requiring the lowering of your defence to avoid additional damage is more or less saying "in combat you take this extra damage" because if you stop defending yourself, switchknife boy can just walk over and coup de grace you.
Lastly (for now), you're dealing with d20. At some point, realism is sacrificed for simplicity and game ballance. Y'know, like having it be worth all that extra money to buy a baretta instead of a box-cutter.

The Hive Custodian
17th of November, 2005, 03:03
1. The Katana gains two points of potential damage, but bear in mind that in D&D it was automatically a masterwork weapon. It is not a masterwork weapon in Modern D20. rather, it's just the replacement for the Greatsword.

But a greatsword cannot be used one-handed even with Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Besides, if they wanted it to be masterwork they could have easily made it so, and you still can make it masterwork.

A three-section staff is also really, REALLY hard to use properly.

As is a dire flail. In fact, I would think that they bent reality to acommodate the dire flail; it doesn't really seem like a feasible weapon to me.

Lastly (for now), you're dealing with d20. At some point, realism is sacrificed for simplicity and game ballance. Y'know, like having it be worth all that extra money to buy a baretta instead of a box-cutter.

This is really the point of the argument. We have to combine game balance, simplicity, and realism. Are the wound and coup de grace rules more realistic? Yes. But I don't think they're worth the price in game balance and simplicity. d20 wasn't really designed to simulate reality. Some concessions were made in the name of simplicity; that's why characters take turns, why there's no body location hit tables, and so forth. Perhaps more importantly, even if simplicity were not a factor, d20 isn't meant to simulate normal people, as evidenced by high level characters' ridiculous statistics.

ShadowDawn
17th of November, 2005, 03:31
I have a thought. For those who like simplicity, there's a feat in Complete Warrior that's a lot like this: Arterial Strike. Basically, drop 1d6 sneak attack for bleedage, 1 per round. Perhaps we could use the drawback = bleedage model? Say, a knife wielder can take a -2 penalty to hit when aiming for an artery or other high-damage area to bleed the opponent instead of simply trying to get a cut in wherever possible, which would result in the base damage?

stealthbanana
17th of November, 2005, 06:22
If you jump out from around the corner and stab somone in the back, they stand a good chance of living. You jump out from around the corner and shoot someone, they don't stand such a good chance of living.

Not true. If you jump out of the shadows and stab someone in the back, it's likely that they just lost a good number of nerve cells in their spine. Which means they may not be able to move and are bleeding heavily. If you're smart and you stab them in the lower back (kidneys) they are as good as dead.

If you lean out a window with a gun, manage to actually hit your target, chances are good that if it isn't a shot to the head, neck, lucky chest shot, or a shot to the kidneys as detailed above, you're target is going to be fine if he can stumble to a hospital or even someone who knows basic first aid. But you can keep shooting him! Yes, but that's beyond the scope of this rules revision. I just want melee weapons to do a bit more damage and both melee and ranged weapons have a way of flat out owning someone. I don't care about the ranged vs. melee argument. I know modern ranged weapons are far better then melee.

Anyway, enough arguing. Guns are better than knives, yes, but not at the degree shown in the d20 modern book. So here's what I suggest.

Pump all melee weapons up by one die step.
Revise the rough draft of the coup de grace rules I have below and integrate them:


Revised Coup de Grace: If an attacking character can move into a targets square (requiring something of a touch attack or something akin to that), and is armed with a weapon capable of doing lethal damage, the attacking character may hold the weapon to a vital area of the target and keep the target pinned. The target must make a will save at a DC of 10 + (half?) the weapons max unmodified damage to attempt to break free of this hold. To break free, the target must make a Reflex save with a DC of 10 + Attackers Dex Modifier. If the target fails this save, the attacker can reflexively attack the target, scoring a critical hit that does max damage. The target must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 5 + Damage Taken to remain standing and aware. If the fortitude save fails, the target is knocked unconcious and begins bleeding as if he had sustained negative hitpoint damage.






Okay, that is way too wordy and there are some mechanics that need to be worked out, so I'm going to leave it to THC to revise and post here when it's finished. Then we can vote on it and see where it goes.

Doomsmile
17th of November, 2005, 07:03
Not true. If you jump out of the shadows and stab someone in the back, it's likely that they just lost a good number of nerve cells in their spine. Which means they may not be able to move and are bleeding heavily. If you're smart and you stab them in the lower back (kidneys) they are as good as dead. By you, I meant I. Maybe you know how to strike at kidney while moving, or the sectrets of rib penetration, but I don't, and I doubt most people do.

If you lean out a window with a gun, manage to actually hit your target, chances are good that if it isn't a shot to the head, neck, lucky chest shot, or a shot to the kidneys as detailed above, you're target is going to be fine if he can stumble to a hospital or even someone who knows basic first aid. First off, I was assuming similar ranges. Secondly, I've been watching more than a few episodes of Shoot-out lately, and, while someone might be able to survive a badly placed gunshot wound, same aplies to a knife wound. You still bleed when you get impaled by a bulled, just as much as if you were cut, practicly.

Guns are better than knives, yes, but not at the degree shown in the d20 modern book. So here's what I suggest.

Pump all melee weapons up by one die step. If you want to fiddle with die steps, a better way would probably be to put guns down a step to keep this in line with just about every other d20 variant, where a longsword does 1d8 and a knife does 1d4.
Revise the rough draft of the coup de grace rules I have below and integrate them:


Revised Coup de Grace: If an attacking character can move into a targets square (requiring something of a touch attack or something akin to that), and is armed with a weapon capable of doing lethal damage, the attacking character may hold the weapon to a vital area of the target and keep the target pinned. The target must make a will save at a DC of 10 + (half?) the weapons max unmodified damage to attempt to break free of this hold. To break free, the target must make a Reflex save with a DC of 10 + Attackers Dex Modifier. If the target fails this save, the attacker can reflexively attack the target, scoring a critical hit that does max damage. The target must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 5 + Damage Taken to remain standing and aware. If the fortitude save fails, the target is knocked unconcious and begins bleeding as if he had sustained negative hitpoint damage.


Two words: Heck no. Not only does this bypass several mechanics, but it's way too lethal. I don't know about you, but I don't want my character to be hit with a coup de grace just for walking past the wrong door. Additionally, if you want holding etc, I would suggest grapple rules. I wouldn't be opposed to a knife-to-the-throat type of grapple move, but this would only be a) if you've initiated the grapple this round, b) you're in the grapple, c) by making a grapple check with a -4 penalty (decreased by one for each point of crit range on the weapon), you can line the weapon up with a critical area, thus causing an automatic critical hit. I'd also say the target needs to be unaware.
Still, I'd just as soon leave the availability of the coup de grace alone, but maybe include the knock-out rules (it knocks out instead of killing the opponent if the weapon normally deals subdual damage).

Lastly, how'd you get formatting into here? I've been trying for over a year to get spaces on the left!

Now that I'm aware of this arterial strike deel (thogh I'm not sure of the details) it might be appropriate for knife bleedage, since you'd need to undertake at least a modicum of training to figure out how to knife someone properly. Most people just know that the pointy end goes into the fleshy bit.

The Hive Custodian
17th of November, 2005, 07:21
First:

Lastly, how'd you get formatting into here? I've been trying for over a year to get spaces on the left!

Use this button: http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/images/editor/indent.gif.1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...Whee!
Secondly, I've drafted some Melee Weapon Design Rules. Let's take the debate over to that topic, which I shall be posting shortly.

EDIT: MELEE WEAPON DEBATES NOW GO HERE. (http://www.online-roleplaying.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5379)

Doomsmile
17th of November, 2005, 10:05
Oh.... Gee, I feel silly now...

The Hive Custodian
7th of December, 2005, 15:32
Design rules have been updated.

nightinverse
19th of December, 2005, 21:41
Thanks, THC. You should have a little [Assistant GM] tag next to your [GM] Tag. Honestly.