Martial Classes at Epic Levels

[Dust]

I'm trying to figure out a way so that the martial classes won't be underpowered at epic levels. Here's what I've got so far:

Martial Classes (Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, Paladin (?), Ranger (?) ):
- Get a damage bonus equal to their martial class level on each attack
- Gain +1 bonuses to attack roll every epic level instead of the normal epic bonus progression.
- Gain ki strike abilities, in that every four martial class levels a character gains a +1 for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance. These bonuses stack with weapon enchantments and/or a monk's ki strike ability.

What do people think about that? I'm a little worried about the damage bonus thing. At epic levels, it's not too hard to create a character who has 10 attacks in a round using the base races (more if hasted), which means that if they were to hit with only 5 of those attacks at level twenty they'd do at least 100 damage, not counting weapon damage and strength bonus. I think 100 total would be more in line (spellcasters can do that easily at level 20).

[Setzer Gabbiani]

While it's true that melee-based classes are underpowered at epic levels, it doesn't actually need fixed. Careful feat selection is first and last for the epic fighter. Heavy use of Armor Skin, Fast Healing, and other defense/survival epic feats will keep them alive. You can only add attack power for so long, now you start pumping defenses. Also, just like when a low-level wizard knows when to save spells, learn that not everything can be pounded into dust. Now the wizard has tons to spare, and you can suck it up to take a more defensive roll every once in a while.

[Dust]

I don't agree with you Setzer. The martial classes don't cut it at epic levels, and not just because they aren't as powerful as the spellcasters. Epic monsters eat them alive, no matter how good their feat selection is, and their selection is somewhat limited because of how often they have to take Penetrate DR to be effective.

They just flat out don't work, is the bottom line. After being a part of two epic games, I can say that with certainty. If you play a martial character in an epic game, it's only going to lead to frustration.

[Skreem]

From my limited exposure to things epic, I would say I have to agree with Dust, and I think I like the additions. They stay in-line with what the classes are "meant" to do, without being overtly over-powerful.
I find it strange, however, that it's just accepted primary spellcasters should have insta-kill spells, while all others are stuck with using special gadgets or just going toe-to-toe for the long haul. There is NO way for an epic fighter to walk up to a character/creature of CR 15 or higher (read over 100 HP), yell BOO and win. However a wizard could walk up and say die, or a cleric can walk up and touch him saying "Now, don't trip, you might pass-out!" (harm), etc... Not to mention the spellcasters could use the same special gadgets the martial classes would.

Yes, variant rules were offered in the DMG - Clobbered and Death from Massive Damage and Triple Threat Insta-kill. However these all work either WAY TOO WELL against the PCs, or can be easily twinked (c'mon, what epic fighter isn't going to have a threat-range at least at 15... if not 12! That's insta-kill way too often for me :) )

[SponkleofInfini]

**Begins to laugh** The monk dosen't need help at epic levels, it is fine as is. The others though could do with those changes though.

Does anyone want to work out how to fix psionics, or should we be done with it :)

[Setzer Gabbiani]

For Skreem: The instant kill variant is a little different than that. It goes like this:


Roll a natural 20 for threat on any weapon.
Roll another natural 20 for crit confirmation.
Roll enough to hit the target a third time (Does not have to be a natural 20).


The threat range of a weapon doesn't matter when determining and instant kill attack. Also, remember that many spells require a touch attack, and anything with an attack roll may crit.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

3rd's massive damage death is listed on page 66 of the DMG. If a medium sized creature takes 50 points of damage or more from a single attack, you make a fortitude save or die.

Setzer, your instakill rule is simply a house rule. Third Edition has no stance on this, since instakills will favor the monsters. Think about it, the monsters have more attacks and thus more possibilities for this auto-kill. In general, it's best not to use instakills.

[Skreem]

Friendly - more attacks? Not necessarily - at 20th level most martial PC's will have at least 6 if not more. My lasher has 10.
The massive damage thing does lean in favor of the monsters however...

sigh... one change here means 10 changes over there.... repeat for each of the 10 changes. Whoops! Just had to change the initial change, that's 10 more changes.... err adjustments.

[Cadogan Trahem]

Im not an Epic Level player, and my Epic Level Knowledge is sketchy at best, but I do happen to know that most Epic NPC's In Forgotten Realms tend spell casters, while most fighter NPC's never get any higher then 15 (perhaps to make them seem formidable opponents/allies/neutrals without needing to crack open the ELH).

I also happen to know the Instant Kill rule is an optional rule, and a stupid one for reasons pointed out by Friendly Fiend, sure a level 20 fighter can have 6 attacks (4 normally, 2 from dual wielding with improved two weapon fighting) but look at lower level encounters, some creatures have three or more attacks when PC's who should be fighting them barely have 2.


I will post something around my knowledge though, Fighters are heavy ended at low levels, they are alot better then low level spell casters, they have the Proficiencies (no attack penalties, and higher AC in general), the BAB, and the HP to soak up battle damage (albeit not alot). They also have to rely more on Str, Dex and Con - while a spell caster has to deal with Int, Wis or Cha (less -combat- useful abilities but not less useful abilities).

While a Level 1 Fighter, can have as much as a +6 to hit, and deal 1d8+4, or even 2d6+6 damage with each hit with a small chance of dealing double or even tripple damage. Your average 1st level spell caster can zap something for 1d4+1 damage (magic missile is the most common spell), however he can do it what? 3 to 4 times a day? And thats if he doesn't prepare any other spells?

In short: Fighters are stronger at low levels, Casters are powerful at Higher Levels. It might be so grossly unballancing now with the ELH that its not funny - but truely messing with rules is rather annoying to say the least.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

By more attacks, I'm implying that the DM can throw hoards of monsters against the PCs. In the end, the DM has the ability/option to roll more attack rolls then the PCs can. Maybe not in a single encounter, but overall the instant kill rule benefits the DM and monsters.

Here's a low level example: 4 average PCs have 4 attacks/spells in a round,.if they're 1st level. A EL 1 with six kobolds has six attacks.

A higher level encounter might have things like Hydras with multiple heads. Or you might see something like 199 After Joker Sinister where the orc archers have rapid shot, just like the PCs can.

[Dust]

Originally posted by Cadogan Trahem
...Fighters are stronger at low levels, Casters are powerful at Higher Levels. It might be so grossly unballancing now with the ELH that its not funny - but truely messing with rules is rather annoying to say the least.

I agree that it's a difficult science, but the alternative is basically to eliminate the martial classes entirely from epic level games because no one wants to play them. After all, who wants to play second fiddle to the party mage or divine caster? They end up in a purely supportive role, Robin to the caster's Batman. Or, to more properly represent the imbalance of power, Alfred to the caster's Batman.

I'm not willing to cut them out completely. I happen to like the martial classes.

Also, on a side note, I notice how most D&D players are rule whores, and I'll admit that I often find myself in this category as a player. But as a DM I accept the rules when I think they're a good idea, and I toss 'em when I think they're bad. People too often fall into treating the rule books like holy texts. They serve as guidebooks, not commandments.

[Beidamon]

I made a fighter who could do 5000 damage the first round of combat, that enough to be considered a insta kill?

Thats not even considering critical hits....

To bad I quit DnD before I could play him

[Skreem]

Beidamon - was it a pure human with no templates and around level 20-25? Or was it a twinked ECL with templates and monster races?

We're talking about core races with no or minimal ECL, advancing through to epic levels - the martial types won't come close to the usefullness of the caster types. To be truly effective at Epic levels currently, one needs to make a caster, or rely on templates and monster races.

[Beidamon]

A spellcaster isn't worth crap at higher levels if he isnt fully twinked out either, so that point is irrelivent

[Dust]

Originally posted by Beidamon
A spellcaster isn't worth crap at higher levels if he isnt fully twinked out either, so that point is irrelivent

I don't agree. Even a completely non-munched spellcaster is valuable at epic levels, whereas a fully munched martial class is not. And why are you still here after quiting D&D? You just lurk around and wait for a chance to add a bitter comment or asshole remark. Either get back in, or stay out.

[SponkleofInfini]

I have to agree, you say you quit but you keep coming back to pester and annoy :)

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Beidamon, so that's what you were doing when you created Unknown, munching the mage. Maybe a pregenerated character might put some things in perspective? Having a character, rather than a munchkin might show you another way to play, and thus restore the fun? Either way, I hope you can figure out your life problems and make a more stable appearance.

[Cadogan Trahem]

I think this discussion should probably cease before it degenerates to random insults. If anyone has their differences I suggest taking it to each other through email, or an Instant Messenger Chat program - The Forums are not the place for it.

[itches]

On that note, let me recomend the sites Chat room. Its great, and if I ever find the motivation i'll get around to writing up the instructions. It should take me about 15 mins.

Untill then go Chat (http://www.online-role-playing.com/forums/chat.php?s=)

[Beidamon]

1) I quite playing DnD, that doesnt mean i cant post on this forum, if you dont like that then to bad.

2) Dust, your the one making the asshole remark, i was contributing to the discussion stating my belief that wizards are not good as well unless you are munchkin. Its just normally easier for mages because a mage can munchkin the best using various classes, while a fighter has to rely more on races and templates. Either post something constructive or shut up, its as simple as that

3) TFF, this has nothing to do with unknown. If i was munching him out then I would of never gave him a template, wizards are usually much better without them. I gave him a template because I thought it would make him a funner charecter. I never said the reason I quit DnD was because it was not fun any more

Just to make my point, how often is it that you see a high level wizard who doesnt take levels of archmage?

[Dust]

Let's keep this out of the forums and get back on track.

So what's the general consensus? Skreem seems to like the modifications, and Cado thinks that messing with the rules is a bad idea. How about the rest of you?

[Setzer Gabbiani]

Instant kill attacks are listed as a variant in the DMG. After that, what I posted was exactly as the book said.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Setzer, you forgot to mention that creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the 3d20-20's intant kill rule. And for those who care, it's printed on page 64 of your DMG. The massive damage rule is on page 66.

Sorry Beid about the unknown comment. It was just difficult to see you play a guy with an intellignence of 21 and making some really foolish in-character mistakes. Maybe those mistakes were wisdom based?

[SponkleofInfini]

Well I ma side with cad here, although I feel martial classes are underpowered at Epic levels I feel it is best not t go and change rules.

[Skreem]

If you don't "correct" the rules to allow for martial classes to be effective/viable at epic levels in comparison to casters, then why have martial classes at all? If to make a martial class viable, the character must use a template/monster race, then the system is inhibiting character creation.

Yes, you can ALWAYS make mistakes or poor decisions in creating a character that will render them worthless, however I feel 20 levels of a core martial class (fighter, ranger, paladin, rogue) as a human should not be considered one of those "poor decisions"!

[Dust]

I'm leaning towards Skreem's opinion, but I may be biased because I am one of the few people I know who prefers the martial classes to spellcasters.

Can someone argue against it using a reasoning besides that the rules shouldn't be messed around with? Because personally, I don't think that's much of an issue. I don't take the rule books nearly so seriously as a lot of people. Also, the 'martial classes are more powerful at lower levels' arguement doesn't do it for me either. The classes should be balanced, pure and simple; some should not be inheriantly better than others. Each should have its place, and none should be overshadowed.

But seriously, convince me. I'm a little bit ansy about the changes myself, because obviously I don't want to screw up and overpower the martial classes.

[Setzer Gabbiani]

If a CR 22 creature can drain levels with no save with a touch attack, no melee character can be overpowered with mortal-made rules.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

There isn't anything wrong with the martial classes when supported by spellcasting characters. The same goes for those spellcasters, they need the support of the fighters. Neither one is complete without the other despite what the fictional stories/novels say.

Face it, at some point the DM can throw some challenge that is immune to a particular profession's abilities. A pudding that's immune to physical attacks, or a golem that's impervious to magic. The game was designed for players to work as a team. It is for all intensive purposes a team building project.

Setzer, there are lots of spells and spell-like abilities that are like that. The thing is, your touch armor class is your saving throw. Take everyone's favorte cleric spell, harm. It's a touch attack that if successful drops the target's hit points to 1d4. You don't get a save if touched. Or how about the Death domain's granted power? If the cleric touches you, you take 1d6 per level of the cleric, no save. In order to protect yourself from these forms of attack, you need to beef up your AC bonuses that aren't physical. I suppose the best way to avoid these attacks is to not be around when they're made. That or have a back-up means to avoid the attack, like a cloak of displacement or something else that grants a miss chance.

[SponkleofInfini]

Hmm if you are going to beef up marial classes at higher levels then why not spellcasters at lower levels. It seems redundent for this game but food for thought.

[Setzer Gabbiani]

Actually, the death domains touch doesn't do damage. You roll your leveld6. If it equals foes HP, it dies. If not, it's fine.

[Dust]

Originally posted by SponkleofInfini
Hmm if you are going to beef up marial classes at higher levels then why not spellcasters at lower levels. It seems redundent for this game but food for thought.

I actually did this once, back in the day :cool: I gave arcane casters the ability to use a ray attack at will in battle for 1d6 + Int or Cha Mod damage, range 30ft, Reflex Half. I figured it would be a good balancer because at later levels the ability would become practically useless, but at lower levels it would give them some added power.

Originally posted by The_Friendly_Fiend
There isn't anything wrong with the martial classes when supported by spellcasting characters. The same goes for those spellcasters, they need the support of the fighters. Neither one is complete without the other despite what the fictional stories/novels say.

At epic levels, this doesn't apply. Has anyone in this conversation other than Sponk and myself played in an epic game? Spellcasters need no help at epic levels. If they suddenly face a golem, they use telekinesis to throw things at it, they summon monsters or find some other way to take it down. And if they can't seem to beat it, they're one action away from a teleport to safety. At epic levels as the rules are presented, there is no need for the martial classes. They just get clobbered, and the casters don't even need them.

Listen, here's a bottom line:
THE MARTIAL CLASSES ARE GROSSLY UNDERPOWERED AT EPIC LEVELS! THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM!

:tsk:

Phew, with that being said, anyone who has played an epic game can disagree with me if they wish, but they'd be wrong :cool: Some of you are saying that they don't need to be fixed, that they're fine, that it all balances out etc. etc. You are not correct! It is ridiculous, and I strive for balance! :nod:

[Beidamon]

They are only underpowered when the DM foolishly allows abuse of the 'Spell Power +X' class skill from some classes, baring that, the spell casters are not that much better

[Dust]

Originally posted by Beidamon
They are only underpowered when the DM foolishly allows abuse of the 'Spell Power +X' class skill from some classes, baring that, the spell casters are not that much better

This from the man who moped around in Druid's game after his fully munchkined epic monk became the least powerful character in the game.

Let me repeat that, and I'll use bold lettering:
Beidamon, King of the Munchkins, created an epic monk that became the least powerful character in the game.

And monks are the most powerful of the martial classes at epic levels.

And Beid, what do you mean by abuse? It's a part of the Heirophant and Archmage PrCs, and we never did anything outside of the limits of the those classes.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Fine how about booby traps? You still need a rogue to find and disable them. Multiple monsters with different abilities, if they go first, the mage by himself is toast. Mixed encounters at any level are by far the most deadly for adventurers. By mixed I mean a combination of magic and arms.

Sure the mage can teleport away, but at that high of level, shouldn't the fight also have a means of escape? A helm of teleportation or something similar?

The other thing that can damper a mage is an area that causes magic to function in a random way or maybe a magical null zone. Or shudder, if you use a spellfire kind of system, your encounter might be able to just absorb all of those magical energies. Remember it only takes one such encounter to kill a PC.

And at such a high level, you'd assume that the PCs have leadership or even epic level leadership and if you look at the typical mix of cohorts, a mage usually has a fighter bodyguard. The reverse is true with fighters, they'll have a magic user, arcane or divine.

[Beidamon]

Who said my monk had become the least powerful? My charecter was perfectly powerful. Your charecters were not more powerful then mine, just alot cheaper. The only reason you could kill stuff I couldnt was because of spell power. When your level 20 and you get +50 to overcome SR then something is wrong, Even if it is legal. I would also like to point out that soon my monk could of easily killed your cleric, no matter the roll to overcome SR and the high save requirements.

[Dust]

:tired:

Beid, you are easily one of the most ridiculous people I have ever met. I don't care to respond to your last post. I think that my original policy of simply ingnoring you is best.

[Dust]

Originally posted by The_Friendly_Fiend
And at such a high level, you'd assume that the PCs have leadership or even epic level leadership and if you look at the typical mix of cohorts, a mage usually has a fighter bodyguard. The reverse is true with fighters, they'll have a magic user, arcane or divine.

You make a good point with that. In Druid's epic game, leadership wasn't allowed because of how complicated it can be at epic levels.

But I'll tell you, without the DM being pulling a fast one on the players, the martial classes don't have much of a purpose, nor do rouges. Most traps can be gotten around by a spellcaster of high level, and unless you're commonly fighting golems or finding yourself in a dead mage zone (which would be really cheap and would only frustrate the party casters) there's no need to have a fighter in the party.

Besides, I'm going to stress again that I'm looking for balance. I don't want a martial character to be a spellcaster's lackey. I want them to be equally powerful, and thus equally valuable. No constant second fiddles.

[Beidamon]

Dust, you think im ridiculous? Well I think your insulting and foolish. You insult me in your post then try to claim things that are not true about my charecters. Maybe you should be more careful about what you post before you start complaining about what other people post.

[SponkleofInfini]

Just when I thought it would stop

[Beidamon]

Insulting people even more isnt the best way to end something, so I dont see any reason why you should think it would stop. It will stop when dust finally learns some manners, or baring that, how to carefully edit his posts to at least hide his lack of them.

[The_Friendly_Fiend]

Dust, ever condsider that like in life there is no balance? There are people in positions of power and there are those who are slaves or in the position to be commanded. If you're fighting for balance, more power to you, but I think it's hopeless.

What I see are weakling mages being protected by a wall of meat, aka. fighters. Later on the mage supports the fighter. At the end of the line, the mage has the option to work it alone, but at the same time so could the fighter since he's become such a famous war hero, thousands flock to his banner.

Epic level heroes to me are leaders of men, rather then adventurers. Their epicness (is that such a word?) isn't about what they are right now, but what they accomplished as they attained such a high level. That's when you start hearing those epic stories like Beowolf. He was made epic by his past deeds rather then what he is at the end of the story.

[itches]

Okay I’m going to toss in my two uninformed cents. If I’m wrong about any of this, no need to tell me ;)

The general Idea I have is that Wizards are meant to be more powerful then fighters. If you look at a level 1 Wizard and fighter.

True the fighter is more powerful then the mage, but if you ignore that, look at the backgrounds of them.

A fighter can be from as simple a background as a farmers son, who one day decided to pick up a sword and run away, gaining skill over time.

A level one Wizard, has been an apprentice, he had to study and work to get to where he is.

In the PHB somewhere it says the random starting age of the different classes.

Where am I going with this? Well somewhere in this drivel, I’ll try and come to a point.

In my opinion the very nature of the two classes differs. Almost anyone can become a fighter, but to be a wizard it takes something more. Its a more exotic class, and lends it's self to power better.

There you have it, a 214 word tirade that probably made no sense. And remember, there is absolutely no need to show me how wrong I am

:fun:

[BigRedRod]

Magic is meant to be powerful
It's a fantasy staple

Wizards destroy armys
Their heavily trained warrior companions stop anyone getting close enough to them

I liked the 2e way of dealing with this, they had wizards need more exp to gain a level, of course you gonna have a hard time getting this into 3e without making the mechanics clunky

[Skreem]

No-one is saying that casters shouldn't be more powerful, however the non-casters shouldn't have to hunt down null magic zones just to make themselves feel necessary :)

[BigRedRod]

the real problem is magic being too common

In most fantasy settings
one wizard has 3.762 billion warriors he uses as an army and maybe 6 apprentives/helper mages


Still you want a mechanic solution not a background justification :)